Report forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Adam Di Carlo <aph@debian.org>:
Bug#109431; Package doc-base.
debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgAdam Di Carlo
Subject: Bug#109431: [Yoshito Komatsu ] Re: "Section" in *.doc-base file.
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From: Adam Di Carlo
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Package: doc-base
From: Yoshito Komatsu
Hello.
Thank you for replying.
On Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 10:26:53AM -0400, Adam Di Carlo wrote:
> > I started discussing about sections in doc-base
> > at debian-devel@lists.debian.org.
> >
> > Could you join us?
>
> No -- I'm not on that list and it's too high-volume for me.
>
> Please email me a summary of the discussion. Feel free to CC me on
> any emails about this, even on the list.
There are two idea about doc-base sections.
At present, most of *.doc-base files in my PC
seems to be located in sections according to menu-policy.
"We should make doc-base policy keeping the present state",
this is one idea.
Following this idea, sections will be as follows.
// Debian doc-base policy
Apps/
Desctiption:
Apps/ is a section for applications' documents.
All applications are filed according to its functionality.
(e.g. AbiWord under Apps/Editors, GIMP under Apps/Graphics,
GNotes! under Apps/Editors, Modem Lights applet under Apps/Net)
Subsections:
Databeses
Editors
Emulators
Graphics
Hamradio
Math
Net
Programming
Tools
Technical
Text
Shells
Multimedia
Viewers
System
Games
Help
Debian/
Description:
Debian/ is a section for specific documents of Debian.
(e.g. Debian Policy Manual, Debian Developer's Reference)
Devel/
Description:
Devel/ is a section for development.
(e.g. GTK+ Reference, HTML Reference, C Language Reference)
Documents for programming "application"(including IDEs,
unix-like tools for programming) are included in
Apps/Programming section.
Licenses/
Description:
Licenses/ is a section for licences.
(e.g. GNU General Public License, GNU Free Documentation License)
// Debian doc-base policy
But, some people think it's a mistake to make "Apps" a category
and we should think separately from menu-policy
because they think menu-policy isn't suitable to search
for documentation.
They make another draft, this is another idea.
Following this idea, sections will be as follows.
// Debian doc-base policy
Databases
Debian
Editors
Emulators
Games
Graphics
Licenses
Mathematics
Multimedia
Networking
Programming
Radio
Science
Shells
System Administration
Text
Viewers
// Debian doc-base policy
Which idea shoud we take?
For more information, please see a series of messages started from
"http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200108/msg00869.html".
Regards,
--
Yoshito Komatsu
GPG key fingerprint: 4E0C 2629 6DC7 5EA7 3957 8982 2156 1D44 D12C 489D
--=-=-=
--
...Adam Di Carlo.....
--=-=-=--
Acknowledgement sent to Adam Di Carlo <adam@onshore.com>:
New Bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to Adam Di Carlo <aph@debian.org>.
-t
From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Adam Di Carlo
Subject: Bug#109431: Acknowledgement ([Yoshito Komatsu ] Re: "Section" in *.doc-base file.)
Message-ID:
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Subject: [Yoshito Komatsu ] Re: "Section" in *.doc-base file.
Organization: onShore Development, Inc
From: Adam Di Carlo
Date: 20 Aug 2001 18:22:16 -0400
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--=-=-=
Package: doc-base
From: Yoshito Komatsu
Hello.
Thank you for replying.
On Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 10:26:53AM -0400, Adam Di Carlo wrote:
> > I started discussing about sections in doc-base
> > at debian-devel@lists.debian.org.
> >
> > Could you join us?
>
> No -- I'm not on that list and it's too high-volume for me.
>
> Please email me a summary of the discussion. Feel free to CC me on
> any emails about this, even on the list.
There are two idea about doc-base sections.
At present, most of *.doc-base files in my PC
seems to be located in sections according to menu-policy.
"We should make doc-base policy keeping the present state",
this is one idea.
Following this idea, sections will be as follows.
// Debian doc-base policy
Apps/
Desctiption:
Apps/ is a section for applications' documents.
All applications are filed according to its functionality.
(e.g. AbiWord under Apps/Editors, GIMP under Apps/Graphics,
GNotes! under Apps/Editors, Modem Lights applet under Apps/Net)
Subsections:
Databeses
Editors
Emulators
Graphics
Hamradio
Math
Net
Programming
Tools
Technical
Text
Shells
Multimedia
Viewers
System
Games
Help
Debian/
Description:
Debian/ is a section for specific documents of Debian.
(e.g. Debian Policy Manual, Debian Developer's Reference)
Devel/
Description:
Devel/ is a section for development.
(e.g. GTK+ Reference, HTML Reference, C Language Reference)
Documents for programming "application"(including IDEs,
unix-like tools for programming) are included in
Apps/Programming section.
Licenses/
Description:
Licenses/ is a section for licences.
(e.g. GNU General Public License, GNU Free Documentation License)
// Debian doc-base policy
But, some people think it's a mistake to make "Apps" a category
and we should think separately from menu-policy
because they think menu-policy isn't suitable to search
for documentation.
They make another draft, this is another idea.
Following this idea, sections will be as follows.
// Debian doc-base policy
Databases
Debian
Editors
Emulators
Games
Graphics
Licenses
Mathematics
Multimedia
Networking
Programming
Radio
Science
Shells
System Administration
Text
Viewers
// Debian doc-base policy
Which idea shoud we take?
For more information, please see a series of messages started from
"http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200108/msg00869.html".
Regards,
--
Yoshito Komatsu
GPG key fingerprint: 4E0C 2629 6DC7 5EA7 3957 8982 2156 1D44 D12C 489D
--=-=-=
--
...Adam Di Carlo.....
--=-=-=--
Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Adam Di Carlo <aph@debian.org>:
Bug#109431; Package doc-base.
debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgAdam Di Carlo
Subject: Bug#109431: "Section" in *.doc-base file.
Reply-To: Adam Di Carlo , 109431@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Adam Di Carlo
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Sender: adam@arroz.onshored.com
To: Yoshito Komatsu
Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, 109431@bugs.debian.org
References: <20010815095947.A11453@nifty.com>
<20010820113907.A605@nifty.com>
Organization: onShore Development, Inc
From: Adam Di Carlo
Date: 22 Aug 2001 12:34:39 -0400
In-Reply-To: <20010820113907.A605@nifty.com>
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FYI, I have made your summary into a bug against doc-base, which I'm
CC'ing here. If people can be sure to CC the bug this in the
discussion, I'll get a copy of the discussion.
Yoshito Komatsu writes:
> At present, most of *.doc-base files in my PC
> seems to be located in sections according to menu-policy.
> "We should make doc-base policy keeping the present state",
> this is one idea.
[...]
> But, some people think it's a mistake to make "Apps" a category
> and we should think separately from menu-policy
> because they think menu-policy isn't suitable to search
> for documentation.
> They make another draft, this is another idea.
> Which idea shoud we take?
I would suggest strictly following the menu structure for now.
I have some ideas about a more flexible subject structure. We really
need something like a "subject authority list" -- massively simpler
say than the Library of Congress one, but I don't see why we can't
lift some ideas from there.
The biggest question in my mind is whether package maintainers and add
to the structure or not. I am thinking, "yes". Sure, that will
dilute the structure a bit and possibly lead to redundant things and
problems, but I like how it opens up and devolves maintenance duties
to the Debian package maintainers.
Anyhow, I do already have a provision doc-base structure, defined as
structured text (probably should be XML or even RDF). It's been lying
fallow for about 2 years now -- ever since I've gotten involved in the
boot-floppies, all my time has been sucked up. However, with Woody's
release, I'm giving up Debian install system duties and I hope to
rework the whole doc-base so that we have a coherent and worthy conept
of a document storage system, which can be treated as data and burst
out into many forms: HTML pages, bookmarks, XML, whatever.
If anyone wants to contribute I can give out CVS access to the
doc-base area, which is managed on cvs.debian.org.
--
...Adam Di Carlo.....
Acknowledgement sent to Adam Di Carlo <adam@onshore.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Adam Di Carlo <aph@debian.org>.
-t
From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Adam Di Carlo
Subject: Bug#109431: Info received (was "Section" in *.doc-base file.)
Message-ID:
In-Reply-To:
References:
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 109431
Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report. It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.
Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
Adam Di Carlo
If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 109431@bugs.debian.org, as before.
Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.
Darren Benham
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From adam@onshore.com Wed Aug 22 11:34:27 2001
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To: Yoshito Komatsu
Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, 109431@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: "Section" in *.doc-base file.
References: <20010815095947.A11453@nifty.com>
<20010820113907.A605@nifty.com>
Organization: onShore Development, Inc
From: Adam Di Carlo
Date: 22 Aug 2001 12:34:39 -0400
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FYI, I have made your summary into a bug against doc-base, which I'm
CC'ing here. If people can be sure to CC the bug this in the
discussion, I'll get a copy of the discussion.
Yoshito Komatsu writes:
> At present, most of *.doc-base files in my PC
> seems to be located in sections according to menu-policy.
> "We should make doc-base policy keeping the present state",
> this is one idea.
[...]
> But, some people think it's a mistake to make "Apps" a category
> and we should think separately from menu-policy
> because they think menu-policy isn't suitable to search
> for documentation.
> They make another draft, this is another idea.
> Which idea shoud we take?
I would suggest strictly following the menu structure for now.
I have some ideas about a more flexible subject structure. We really
need something like a "subject authority list" -- massively simpler
say than the Library of Congress one, but I don't see why we can't
lift some ideas from there.
The biggest question in my mind is whether package maintainers and add
to the structure or not. I am thinking, "yes". Sure, that will
dilute the structure a bit and possibly lead to redundant things and
problems, but I like how it opens up and devolves maintenance duties
to the Debian package maintainers.
Anyhow, I do already have a provision doc-base structure, defined as
structured text (probably should be XML or even RDF). It's been lying
fallow for about 2 years now -- ever since I've gotten involved in the
boot-floppies, all my time has been sucked up. However, with Woody's
release, I'm giving up Debian install system duties and I hope to
rework the whole doc-base so that we have a coherent and worthy conept
of a document storage system, which can be treated as data and burst
out into many forms: HTML pages, bookmarks, XML, whatever.
If anyone wants to contribute I can give out CVS access to the
doc-base area, which is managed on cvs.debian.org.
--
...Adam Di Carlo.....
Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Adam Di Carlo <aph@debian.org>:
Bug#109431; Package doc-base.
debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgAdam Di Carlo
Subject: Bug#109431: "Section" in *.doc-base file.
Reply-To: "Steve M. Robbins" , 109431@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: "Steve M. Robbins"
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Received: via spool by 109431-submit@bugs.debian.org id=B109431.99850200118212
(code B ref 109431); Wed, 22 Aug 2001 17:48:04 GMT
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:39:58 -0400
To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, 109431@bugs.debian.org
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From: "Steve M. Robbins"
Delivered-To: 109431@bugs.debian.org
On Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 12:34:39PM -0400, Adam Di Carlo wrote:
>
> FYI, I have made your summary into a bug against doc-base, which I'm
> CC'ing here. If people can be sure to CC the bug this in the
> discussion, I'll get a copy of the discussion.
Yoshito's summary is admirably concise.
However, I would like to reemphasize that documentation covers more
than runnable programs. It is artificial and confusing to separate
documentation about a programming tool from documentation about a
programming library, simply because the first is a program and the
second is not. Both are related to "programming" and the
documentation navigation should reflect that.
(Fuller argument in
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200108/msg01017.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200108/msg01022.html)
> I have some ideas about a more flexible subject structure. We really
> need something like a "subject authority list" -- massively simpler
> say than the Library of Congress one, but I don't see why we can't
> lift some ideas from there.
This sounds promising, but I hope you are serious about the "massively
simpler" bit. :-) I wouldn't like to see more than a dozen or so
choices at each level of the menu.
> Anyhow, I do already have a provision doc-base structure,
I'd like to have a look. How can I get ahold of this?
-Steve
--
by Rocket to the Moon,
by Airplane to the Rocket,
by Taxi to the Airport,
by Frontdoor to the Taxi,
by throwing back the blanket and laying down the legs ...
- They Might Be Giants
Acknowledgement sent to "Steve M. Robbins" <steven.robbins@videotron.ca>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Adam Di Carlo <aph@debian.org>.
-t
From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: "Steve M. Robbins"
Subject: Bug#109431: Info received (was "Section" in *.doc-base file.)
Message-ID:
In-Reply-To: <20010822133958.C11645@nyongwa.montreal.qc.ca>
References: <20010822133958.C11645@nyongwa.montreal.qc.ca>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 109431
Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report. It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.
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Adam Di Carlo
If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 109431@bugs.debian.org, as before.
Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.
Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)
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Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2001 13:39:58 -0400
To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, 109431@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: "Section" in *.doc-base file.
Message-ID: <20010822133958.C11645@nyongwa.montreal.qc.ca>
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From: "Steve M. Robbins"
Delivered-To: 109431@bugs.debian.org
On Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 12:34:39PM -0400, Adam Di Carlo wrote:
>
> FYI, I have made your summary into a bug against doc-base, which I'm
> CC'ing here. If people can be sure to CC the bug this in the
> discussion, I'll get a copy of the discussion.
Yoshito's summary is admirably concise.
However, I would like to reemphasize that documentation covers more
than runnable programs. It is artificial and confusing to separate
documentation about a programming tool from documentation about a
programming library, simply because the first is a program and the
second is not. Both are related to "programming" and the
documentation navigation should reflect that.
(Fuller argument in
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200108/msg01017.html
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200108/msg01022.html)
> I have some ideas about a more flexible subject structure. We really
> need something like a "subject authority list" -- massively simpler
> say than the Library of Congress one, but I don't see why we can't
> lift some ideas from there.
This sounds promising, but I hope you are serious about the "massively
simpler" bit. :-) I wouldn't like to see more than a dozen or so
choices at each level of the menu.
> Anyhow, I do already have a provision doc-base structure,
I'd like to have a look. How can I get ahold of this?
-Steve
--
by Rocket to the Moon,
by Airplane to the Rocket,
by Taxi to the Airport,
by Frontdoor to the Taxi,
by throwing back the blanket and laying down the legs ...
- They Might Be Giants
Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Adam Di Carlo <aph@debian.org>:
Bug#109431; Package doc-base.
debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgAdam Di Carlo
Subject: Bug#109431: "Section" in *.doc-base file.
Reply-To: Eray Ozkural (exa) , 109431@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Eray Ozkural (exa)
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From: Eray Ozkural (exa)
Organization: Bilkent University
To: "Steve M. Robbins" ,
debian-devel@lists.debian.org, 109431@bugs.debian.org
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 00:57:10 +0300
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On Wednesday 22 August 2001 08:39 pm, Steve M. Robbins wrote:
>
> However, I would like to reemphasize that documentation covers more
> than runnable programs. It is artificial and confusing to separate
> documentation about a programming tool from documentation about a
> programming library, simply because the first is a program and the
> second is not. Both are related to "programming" and the
> documentation navigation should reflect that.
>
That is correct. The categorization here should ease navigation.
Regards,
- --
Eray Ozkural (exa)
Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
www: http://www.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/~erayo
GPG public key fingerprint: 360C 852F 88B0 A745 F31B EA0F 7C07 AE16 874D 539C
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Acknowledgement sent to Eray Ozkural (exa) <erayo@cs.bilkent.edu.tr>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Adam Di Carlo <aph@debian.org>.
-t
From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Eray Ozkural (exa)
Subject: Bug#109431: Info received (was "Section" in *.doc-base file.)
Message-ID:
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Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
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to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.
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From: Eray Ozkural (exa)
Organization: Bilkent University
To: "Steve M. Robbins" ,
debian-devel@lists.debian.org, 109431@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: "Section" in *.doc-base file.
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2001 00:57:10 +0300
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References: <20010815095947.A11453@nifty.com> <20010822133958.C11645@nyongwa.montreal.qc.ca>
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On Wednesday 22 August 2001 08:39 pm, Steve M. Robbins wrote:
>
> However, I would like to reemphasize that documentation covers more
> than runnable programs. It is artificial and confusing to separate
> documentation about a programming tool from documentation about a
> programming library, simply because the first is a program and the
> second is not. Both are related to "programming" and the
> documentation navigation should reflect that.
>
That is correct. The categorization here should ease navigation.
Regards,
- --
Eray Ozkural (exa)
Comp. Sci. Dept., Bilkent University, Ankara
www: http://www.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/~erayo
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Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Adam Di Carlo <aph@debian.org>:
Bug#109431; Package doc-base.
debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgAdam Di Carlo
Subject: Bug#109431: Section" in *.doc-base file.
Reply-To: Adam Di Carlo , 109431@bugs.debian.org
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To: "Steve M. Robbins"
Cc: 109431@bugs.debian.org, debian-doc@lists.debian.org
References: <20010815095947.A11453@nifty.com>
<20010820113907.A605@nifty.com>
<20010822133958.C11645@nyongwa.montreal.qc.ca>
Organization: onShore Development, Inc
From: Adam Di Carlo
Date: 21 Oct 2001 00:44:15 -0400
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"Steve M. Robbins" writes:
> On Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 12:34:39PM -0400, Adam Di Carlo wrote:
> > Anyhow, I do already have a provision doc-base structure,
>
> I'd like to have a look. How can I get ahold of this?
Did I reply?
Use CVSROOT :ext:cvs.debian.org:/cvs/doc-base , module doc-base.
--
...Adam Di Carlo.....
Acknowledgement sent to Adam Di Carlo <adam@onshore-devel.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Adam Di Carlo <aph@debian.org>.
-t
From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Adam Di Carlo
Subject: Bug#109431: Info received (was Bug#109431: "Section" in *.doc-base file.)
Message-ID:
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Disabled-Doogie-Reply-To: 109431@bugs.debian.org
Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
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to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.
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Adam Di Carlo
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Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)
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Subject: Re: Bug#109431: "Section" in *.doc-base file.
References: <20010815095947.A11453@nifty.com>
<20010820113907.A605@nifty.com>
<20010822133958.C11645@nyongwa.montreal.qc.ca>
Organization: onShore Development, Inc
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"Steve M. Robbins" writes:
> On Wed, Aug 22, 2001 at 12:34:39PM -0400, Adam Di Carlo wrote:
> > Anyhow, I do already have a provision doc-base structure,
>
> I'd like to have a look. How can I get ahold of this?
Did I reply?
Use CVSROOT :ext:cvs.debian.org:/cvs/doc-base , module doc-base.
--
...Adam Di Carlo.....
Changed Bug title.
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retitle 109431 rethinking and redesigning section hierarchies
Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Robert Luberda <robert@debian.org>:
Bug#109431; Package doc-base.
debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgRobert Luberda
X-Loop: owner@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Bug#109431: The menu structure is inappropriate for doc-base (was: rethinking and redesigning section hierarchies)
Reply-To: Frank =?UTF-8?Q?K=C3=BCster?= , 109431@bugs.debian.org
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From: Frank =?UTF-8?Q?K=C3=BCster?=
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2006 15:53:04 +0100
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Hi doc-base maintainer(s),
this bug has gotten very old in the BTS. Back when it was discussed on
devel, it seems there was no documentation about which sections to use
for registering to doc-base.
Now, there is documentation, and it mandates to follow the menu
structure. However, I think this is quite inappropriate. There are
important things that can and should be documented that will never get a
menu entry. It's not only about devel documentation, which seems to
have been considered back then. The problem is also that sections that
are already large in the menu structure (like Tools) or that are even
quite small (like Text) can get intractably large if you add
documentation for the respective commandline tools that will never have
a menu entry.
Therefore, a section TeX (not Text) has been used by a couple of
packages for a while, and we're going to continue doing so.
Regards, Frank
--=20
Dr. Frank K=FCster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Z=
=FCrich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)
Acknowledgement sent to Frank Küster <frank@kuesterei.ch>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Robert Luberda <robert@debian.org>.
-t
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From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Frank =?UTF-8?Q?K=C3=BCster?=
Subject: Bug#109431: Info received (The menu structure is inappropriate
for doc-base (was: rethinking and redesigning section hierarchies))
Message-Id:
References: <86r6v2fs1b.fsf@alhambra.kuesterei.ch>
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Reply-To: 109431@bugs.debian.org
Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report. It has been forwarded to the package maintainer(s)
and to other interested parties to accompany the original report.
Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
Robert Luberda
If you wish to continue to submit further information on this problem,
please send it to 109431@bugs.debian.org, as before.
Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.
Debian bug tracking system administrator
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Hi doc-base maintainer(s),
this bug has gotten very old in the BTS. Back when it was discussed on
devel, it seems there was no documentation about which sections to use
for registering to doc-base.
Now, there is documentation, and it mandates to follow the menu
structure. However, I think this is quite inappropriate. There are
important things that can and should be documented that will never get a
menu entry. It's not only about devel documentation, which seems to
have been considered back then. The problem is also that sections that
are already large in the menu structure (like Tools) or that are even
quite small (like Text) can get intractably large if you add
documentation for the respective commandline tools that will never have
a menu entry.
Therefore, a section TeX (not Text) has been used by a couple of
packages for a while, and we're going to continue doing so.
Regards, Frank
--=20
Dr. Frank K=FCster
Single Molecule Spectroscopy, Protein Folding @ Inst. f. Biochemie, Univ. Z=
=FCrich
Debian Developer (teTeX/TeXLive)
Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org:
Bug#109431; Package doc-base.
debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
X-Loop: owner@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Bug#109431: Doc-base section hierarchy (was: Re: doc-base, menu, and policy (Re: Debian Policy 3.7.3.0 uploaded))
Reply-To: Robert Luberda , 109431@bugs.debian.org
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CC: 109431@bugs.debian.org
References: <87ir3g2qql.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <20071203082406.GA2663@kunpuu.plessy.org> <20071203104336.GA2668@takhisis.invalid>
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Stefano Zacchiroli writes:
Hi,
> On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 05:24:06PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
>> (http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/menu-policy/ch2.html#s2.1).
>> Required field.
>>
>> I am wondering if when a .doc-base file is not updated, it makes the
doc-base 0.8.7, I uploaded yesterday, already refers to the new
hierarchy defined in menu package.
> I found not reasonable that the doc-base hierarchy is bound to the menu
> one.
I fully agree. Even though the newest doc-base tries to map old sections
into new ones while generating control files in
/var/lib/doc-base/documents, I really think that the doc-base and the
menu hierarchies should be separated, however I need some help with
this. If you have some ideas, how the hierarchy should be changed, I'm
looking forward to hearing them.
The problem was already reported[1] several years ago and discussed on
debian-devel than[2]. From that discussion I most like the proposal from
[3] to made the hierarchy similar to that one from menu package, but
with the "Apps" prefix removed. I think we could start from this but
update it for the current menu structure (i.e change "Database" into
"Data Management", "Maths" into "Science/Mathematics", etc, but remove
any "Apps" or "Applications" prefix). Than we could add some top-level
sections to it like "Debian".
A month ago I gathered some data about doc-base files (see [4] and [5]).
Based on that data I prepared some statistics about current doc-base
sections and also some mapping ("Apps/Applications" prefix removed):
OLD SECTION (COUNT) POSSIBLE NEW SECTION
Hamradio (2) => Amateur Radio
Databases (7) => Data Management
Database (1) => Data Management
Data Management (2) => Data Management
Debian (103) => Debian
Debian/Installation (188) => Debian/Installation
Editors (28) => Editors or Editing
Education (1) => Education
Emulators (47) => Emulators
Games (8) => Games
Games/Arcade (11) => Games/Action
Games/Adventure (3) => Games/Adventure
Games/Tetris-Like (2) => Games/Blocks
Games/Board (16) => Games/Board
Games/Board/Chess (2) => Games/Board/Chess
Games/Card (5) => Games/Card
Games/Educational (1) => Games/Educational # not in menu hier.
Games/Puzzles (8) => Games/Puzzles
Games/Simulation (2) => Games/Simulation
Games/Strategy (4) => Games/Strategy
Games/Toys (7) => Games/Toys
Graphics (76) => Graphics
Help (27) => Help
Manpages (1) => Help
Faq (8) => Help/FAQ or FAQ
Howto (4) => Help/HOWTO or HOWTO
Rfc (16) => Help/RFC or Standards/RFC or RFC
Standards (1) => Help or Standards
Net (112) => Network
Mail (16) => Network/Communication # like in menu
Contrib/Libs (1) => Programming
Development (4) => Programming
Devel (77) => Programming
Libs (4) => Programming or Programming/$language
Non-Free/Devel (1) => Programming
Programming (704) => Programming or Programming/$language
Programming/Java (2) => Programming/Java
Lisp/Documentation (1) => Programming/Lisp
Lisp/Net (1) => Programming/Lisp
Python (2) => Programming/Python
Libdevel (5) => Programming
Science (75) => Science
Science/Biology (5) => Science/Biology
Electronics (6) => Science/Electronics
Math (110) => Science/Mathematics
Science/Medicine (1) => Science/Medicine
Technical (8) => Science/Electronics #like in menu
Shells (7) => Shells
Audio (2) => Sound
Sound (41) => Sound
Music (5) => Sound
System (48) => System
Admin (23) => System/Administration
System/Security (1) => System/Security
Xshells (5) => Terminal Emulators
Text (87) => Text
Utilities (1) => Utilities or Tools
Utils (9) => Utilities or Tools
Tools (100) => Utilities or Tools
Viewers (3) => Viewers
Windowmanagers (8) => Window Managers
Windowmanager (2) => Window Managers
X11/Window Managers (1) => Window Managers
Sections with no obvious mapping:
1 (1) =>
Apps (2) =>
Base (1) =>
Book (2) => possibly Help
Comm (3) =>
Docs (1) => possibly Help
Doc (6) => possibly Help
Fr/Comm (1)
Gnome (1) =>
Interpreters (5) =>
Misc (12) =>
Optional (1) =>
Printing (1) =>
Tex (14) => TeX or Editors/TeX or Editing/TeX
Unknown (11) =>
Web/W3c (3) => maybe Web Developement/W3 or
Help/W3 or Standards/W3
Web/W3 (138) => maybe Web Developement/W3 or
Help/W3 or Standards/W3
Web (21) => maybe Web Developement
X11 (8) =>
Best Regards,
robert
[1] http://bugs.debian.org/109431
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/08/thrd3.html#00869
[3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/08/msg01022.html
[4] http://bugs.debian.org/448783
[5] http://people.debian.org/~robert/lintian-doc-base-logs.tar.bz2
>
Acknowledgement sent to Robert Luberda <robert@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list.
-t
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From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Robert Luberda
Subject: Bug#109431: Info received (Doc-base section hierarchy (was: Re:
doc-base, menu, and policy (Re: Debian Policy 3.7.3.0 uploaded)))
Message-ID:
References: <47548A07.1060401@debian.org>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info 109431
X-Debian-PR-Package: doc-base
X-Debian-PR-Source: doc-base
Reply-To: 109431@bugs.debian.org
Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report. It has been forwarded to the package maintainer(s)
and to other interested parties to accompany the original report.
If you wish to continue to submit further information on this problem,
please send it to 109431@bugs.debian.org, as before.
Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.
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Received: (at 109431) by bugs.debian.org; 3 Dec 2007 22:59:41 +0000
From robert@debian.org Mon Dec 03 22:59:40 2007
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Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2007 23:58:15 +0100
From: Robert Luberda
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To: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
CC: 109431@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Doc-base section hierarchy (was: Re: doc-base, menu, and policy (Re:
Debian Policy 3.7.3.0 uploaded))
References: <87ir3g2qql.fsf@windlord.stanford.edu> <20071203082406.GA2663@kunpuu.plessy.org> <20071203104336.GA2668@takhisis.invalid>
In-Reply-To: <20071203104336.GA2668@takhisis.invalid>
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Stefano Zacchiroli writes:
Hi,
> On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 05:24:06PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
>> (http://www.debian.org/doc/packaging-manuals/menu-policy/ch2.html#s2.1).
>> Required field.
>>
>> I am wondering if when a .doc-base file is not updated, it makes the
doc-base 0.8.7, I uploaded yesterday, already refers to the new
hierarchy defined in menu package.
> I found not reasonable that the doc-base hierarchy is bound to the menu
> one.
I fully agree. Even though the newest doc-base tries to map old sections
into new ones while generating control files in
/var/lib/doc-base/documents, I really think that the doc-base and the
menu hierarchies should be separated, however I need some help with
this. If you have some ideas, how the hierarchy should be changed, I'm
looking forward to hearing them.
The problem was already reported[1] several years ago and discussed on
debian-devel than[2]. From that discussion I most like the proposal from
[3] to made the hierarchy similar to that one from menu package, but
with the "Apps" prefix removed. I think we could start from this but
update it for the current menu structure (i.e change "Database" into
"Data Management", "Maths" into "Science/Mathematics", etc, but remove
any "Apps" or "Applications" prefix). Than we could add some top-level
sections to it like "Debian".
A month ago I gathered some data about doc-base files (see [4] and [5]).
Based on that data I prepared some statistics about current doc-base
sections and also some mapping ("Apps/Applications" prefix removed):
OLD SECTION (COUNT) POSSIBLE NEW SECTION
Hamradio (2) => Amateur Radio
Databases (7) => Data Management
Database (1) => Data Management
Data Management (2) => Data Management
Debian (103) => Debian
Debian/Installation (188) => Debian/Installation
Editors (28) => Editors or Editing
Education (1) => Education
Emulators (47) => Emulators
Games (8) => Games
Games/Arcade (11) => Games/Action
Games/Adventure (3) => Games/Adventure
Games/Tetris-Like (2) => Games/Blocks
Games/Board (16) => Games/Board
Games/Board/Chess (2) => Games/Board/Chess
Games/Card (5) => Games/Card
Games/Educational (1) => Games/Educational # not in menu hier.
Games/Puzzles (8) => Games/Puzzles
Games/Simulation (2) => Games/Simulation
Games/Strategy (4) => Games/Strategy
Games/Toys (7) => Games/Toys
Graphics (76) => Graphics
Help (27) => Help
Manpages (1) => Help
Faq (8) => Help/FAQ or FAQ
Howto (4) => Help/HOWTO or HOWTO
Rfc (16) => Help/RFC or Standards/RFC or RFC
Standards (1) => Help or Standards
Net (112) => Network
Mail (16) => Network/Communication # like in menu
Contrib/Libs (1) => Programming
Development (4) => Programming
Devel (77) => Programming
Libs (4) => Programming or Programming/$language
Non-Free/Devel (1) => Programming
Programming (704) => Programming or Programming/$language
Programming/Java (2) => Programming/Java
Lisp/Documentation (1) => Programming/Lisp
Lisp/Net (1) => Programming/Lisp
Python (2) => Programming/Python
Libdevel (5) => Programming
Science (75) => Science
Science/Biology (5) => Science/Biology
Electronics (6) => Science/Electronics
Math (110) => Science/Mathematics
Science/Medicine (1) => Science/Medicine
Technical (8) => Science/Electronics #like in menu
Shells (7) => Shells
Audio (2) => Sound
Sound (41) => Sound
Music (5) => Sound
System (48) => System
Admin (23) => System/Administration
System/Security (1) => System/Security
Xshells (5) => Terminal Emulators
Text (87) => Text
Utilities (1) => Utilities or Tools
Utils (9) => Utilities or Tools
Tools (100) => Utilities or Tools
Viewers (3) => Viewers
Windowmanagers (8) => Window Managers
Windowmanager (2) => Window Managers
X11/Window Managers (1) => Window Managers
Sections with no obvious mapping:
1 (1) =>
Apps (2) =>
Base (1) =>
Book (2) => possibly Help
Comm (3) =>
Docs (1) => possibly Help
Doc (6) => possibly Help
Fr/Comm (1)
Gnome (1) =>
Interpreters (5) =>
Misc (12) =>
Optional (1) =>
Printing (1) =>
Tex (14) => TeX or Editors/TeX or Editing/TeX
Unknown (11) =>
Web/W3c (3) => maybe Web Developement/W3 or
Help/W3 or Standards/W3
Web/W3 (138) => maybe Web Developement/W3 or
Help/W3 or Standards/W3
Web (21) => maybe Web Developement
X11 (8) =>
Best Regards,
robert
[1] http://bugs.debian.org/109431
[2] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/08/thrd3.html#00869
[3] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/08/msg01022.html
[4] http://bugs.debian.org/448783
[5] http://people.debian.org/~robert/lintian-doc-base-logs.tar.bz2
>
Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Robert Luberda <robert@debian.org>:
Bug#109431; Package doc-base.
debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgRobert Luberda
X-Loop: owner@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Bug#109431: Doc-base section hierarchy (was: Re: doc-base, menu, and policy (Re: Debian Policy 3.7.3.0 uploaded))
Reply-To: Stefano Zacchiroli , 109431@bugs.debian.org
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From: Stefano Zacchiroli
To: Robert Luberda
Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, 109431@bugs.debian.org
Message-ID: <20071204184102.GA30034@takhisis.invalid>
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On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 11:58:15PM +0100, Robert Luberda wrote:
> I fully agree. Even though the newest doc-base tries to map old sections=
=20
> into new ones while generating control files in=20
> /var/lib/doc-base/documents, I really think that the doc-base and the men=
u=20
> hierarchies should be separated, however I need some help with this. If y=
ou=20
> have some ideas, how the hierarchy should be changed, I'm looking forward=
=20
> to hearing them.
Thanks for your efforts on this.
I've a few comments only the use case I've found a while ago and that
concerns doc-base sections. Namely, the use case was were to put the
automatically generated API documentations for OCaml libraries in the
archive. Though narrow as it seems, I found stupid to have to
reimplement a browsing tool for that while I can use doc-base. However,
the most suitable hierarchy I could fine back them was
Application/Programming (though now I see that Programming itself would
have been a better choice). However, the point is of course that the
section is too broad.
So ...
> Programming (704) =3D> Programming or Programming/$language
Programming/OCaml would be better than the status quo for me.
But actually I'm not sure if my case would deserve an even finer
sub-category such as Programming/$language/ApiReference or similar. What
do you think?
Would it be possible to let package maintainers to refine some leaf
categories?
Cheers.
--=20
Stefano Zacchiroli -*- PhD in Computer Science ............... now what?
zack@{cs.unibo.it,debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/
(15:56:48) Zack: e la demo dema ? /\ All one has to do is hit the
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From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Stefano Zacchiroli
Subject: Bug#109431: Info received (Doc-base section hierarchy (was: Re:
doc-base, menu, and policy (Re: Debian Policy 3.7.3.0 uploaded)))
Message-ID:
References: <20071204184102.GA30034@takhisis.invalid>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info 109431
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Reply-To: 109431@bugs.debian.org
Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report. It has been forwarded to the package maintainer(s)
and to other interested parties to accompany the original report.
Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
Robert Luberda
If you wish to continue to submit further information on this problem,
please send it to 109431@bugs.debian.org, as before.
Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.
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From: Stefano Zacchiroli
To: Robert Luberda
Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, 109431@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Doc-base section hierarchy (was: Re: doc-base, menu, and
policy (Re: Debian Policy 3.7.3.0 uploaded))
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On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 11:58:15PM +0100, Robert Luberda wrote:
> I fully agree. Even though the newest doc-base tries to map old sections=
=20
> into new ones while generating control files in=20
> /var/lib/doc-base/documents, I really think that the doc-base and the men=
u=20
> hierarchies should be separated, however I need some help with this. If y=
ou=20
> have some ideas, how the hierarchy should be changed, I'm looking forward=
=20
> to hearing them.
Thanks for your efforts on this.
I've a few comments only the use case I've found a while ago and that
concerns doc-base sections. Namely, the use case was were to put the
automatically generated API documentations for OCaml libraries in the
archive. Though narrow as it seems, I found stupid to have to
reimplement a browsing tool for that while I can use doc-base. However,
the most suitable hierarchy I could fine back them was
Application/Programming (though now I see that Programming itself would
have been a better choice). However, the point is of course that the
section is too broad.
So ...
> Programming (704) =3D> Programming or Programming/$language
Programming/OCaml would be better than the status quo for me.
But actually I'm not sure if my case would deserve an even finer
sub-category such as Programming/$language/ApiReference or similar. What
do you think?
Would it be possible to let package maintainers to refine some leaf
categories?
Cheers.
--=20
Stefano Zacchiroli -*- PhD in Computer Science ............... now what?
zack@{cs.unibo.it,debian.org,bononia.it} -%- http://www.bononia.it/zack/
(15:56:48) Zack: e la demo dema ? /\ All one has to do is hit the
(15:57:15) Bac: no, la demo scema \/ right keys at the right time
--J/dobhs11T7y2rNN
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=O1y6
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Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Robert Luberda <robert@debian.org>:
Bug#109431; Package doc-base.
debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgRobert Luberda
X-Loop: owner@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Bug#109431: Doc-base section hierarchy
Reply-To: mdeb@julius-net.net, 109431@bugs.debian.org
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From: Matthias Julius
To: Robert Luberda
Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, 109431@bugs.debian.org
In-Reply-To: <20071204184102.GA30034@takhisis.invalid> (Stefano Zacchiroli's
message of "Tue, 4 Dec 2007 19:41:02 +0100")
References: <47548A07.1060401@debian.org>
<20071204184102.GA30034@takhisis.invalid>
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Stefano Zacchiroli writes:
> Programming/OCaml would be better than the status quo for me.
>
> But actually I'm not sure if my case would deserve an even finer
> sub-category such as Programming/$language/ApiReference or similar. What
> do you think?
>
> Would it be possible to let package maintainers to refine some leaf
> categories?
There are many packages that have more than one piece of
documentation. I think it would be generally a good idea if there is a
sub-category in those cases.
Matthias
Acknowledgement sent to mdeb@julius-net.net:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Robert Luberda <robert@debian.org>.
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Subject: Bug#109431: Info received (Doc-base section hierarchy)
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References: <87tzmyw330.fsf@julius-net.net>
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Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
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and to other interested parties to accompany the original report.
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Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
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From: Matthias Julius
To: Robert Luberda
Cc: debian-devel@lists.debian.org, 109431@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Doc-base section hierarchy
In-Reply-To: <20071204184102.GA30034@takhisis.invalid> (Stefano Zacchiroli's
message of "Tue, 4 Dec 2007 19:41:02 +0100")
References: <47548A07.1060401@debian.org>
<20071204184102.GA30034@takhisis.invalid>
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Date: Tue, 04 Dec 2007 16:40:51 -0500
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Stefano Zacchiroli writes:
> Programming/OCaml would be better than the status quo for me.
>
> But actually I'm not sure if my case would deserve an even finer
> sub-category such as Programming/$language/ApiReference or similar. What
> do you think?
>
> Would it be possible to let package maintainers to refine some leaf
> categories?
There are many packages that have more than one piece of
documentation. I think it would be generally a good idea if there is a
sub-category in those cases.
Matthias
Merged 109431 460498 463496.
Request was from Robert Luberda <robert@debian.org>
to control@bugs.debian.org.
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Subject: merging 109431 460498 463496
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merge 109431 460498 463496
Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Robert Luberda <robert@debian.org>:
Bug#109431; Package doc-base.
debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgRobert Luberda
X-Loop: owner@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Bug#109431: Bug#460498: Doc-base needs to augment Menu Policy (e.g. missing Debian section)
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Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 22:02:16 -0600
From: "Steve M. Robbins"
In-reply-to: <20080206223030.GA11347@vox.robbo.home>
To: Robert Luberda
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Hi,
Since #460498 is merged with #109431, I'm following up to the latter
which contains the main discussion.
On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 11:30:30PM +0100, Robert Luberda wrote:
> Yes, I'm aware of this issue. The doc-base hierarchy doesn't really suit
> documentation needs. Please see new hierarchy proposal (still based
> on the menu's one) at
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?msg=37;bug=109431
> I would appreciaty any opinions about this idea.
Well that discussion is familiar, indeed. Being one of the
originators of the proposal [1], I like it! I like it even after 6.5
years, so I'm consistent if nothing else. :-)
I think your proposed mapping is a step forward. However, I will
still offer some suggestions. In my view, there are two key ideas:
1. organize by endeavour rather than form, and
2. remove "catch all" sections like "miscellaneous".
The first principle is driven by the fact that if I'm writing a GUI
application, I'd look for the Qt docs under, say, "gui" rather than
"lib". The second principle is similar, actually: I'd look for an
Imagemagick app under "graphics" rather than "tools". A huge number
of things are "tools", so that has very little organizing power as a
section.
There are a couple of other principles one could apply:
3. keep the tree balanced, and
4. use the "menu" section when applicable.
Item #3 is just to keep the search efficient, while #4 reduces the
mental burden: I won't have to map between "Editors" on the menu and
"Editing" in doc-base.
With these princples in mind, I went through your proposed mappings
one by one. After that exercise, I realized that quite a number of my
choices are subjective. I can see why someone might make a difference
choice than me. I'm starting to wonder whether a more web-like
approach where a document could appear in multiple sections might
work.
Pragmatically, I wouldn't expect a sudden, radical change to be
tolerated well. I expect a lot of maintainers would be annoyed and
simply ignore the issue if you told them that their doc-base file had
to be fixed. Perhaps a gradual approach is best. For example, start
with documenting the preferred first- and second-level sections. This
addresses the proximal cause of me filing this bug: package
apt-dpkg-ref is in section Doc rather than Debian mainly because the
documentation for doc-base doesn't describe Section Debian (#153404).
In tandem, you might consider trying to fix only the most egregious
violators of the preferred sections. In my mind, these are the
generics (principle #2): Docs, Doc, Misc, Tools, Utilities, Utils, and
Viewers. Unfortunately, these are hard to deal with an automatic
mapping since some human has to sit down and figure out the correct
section. Perhaps the next step is to audit all these, document
preferred categories that will cover each, and file a bug on the
offending package.
Cheers,
-Steve
[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/08/msg01022.html
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Acknowledgement sent to "Steve M. Robbins" <steve@sumost.ca>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Robert Luberda <robert@debian.org>.
-t
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From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: "Steve M. Robbins"
Subject: Bug#109431: Info received (Bug#460498: Doc-base needs to augment
Menu Policy (e.g. missing Debian section))
Message-ID:
References: <20080207040216.GC31175@sumost.ca>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info 109431
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Reply-To: 109431@bugs.debian.org
Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report. It has been forwarded to the package maintainer(s)
and to other interested parties to accompany the original report.
Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
Robert Luberda
If you wish to continue to submit further information on this problem,
please send it to 109431@bugs.debian.org, as before.
Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.
Debian bug tracking system administrator
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)
Received: (at 109431) by bugs.debian.org; 7 Feb 2008 04:02:24 +0000
From steve@sumost.ca Thu Feb 07 04:02:24 2008
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Date: Wed, 06 Feb 2008 22:02:16 -0600
From: "Steve M. Robbins"
Subject: Re: Bug#460498: Doc-base needs to augment Menu Policy (e.g. missing
Debian section)
In-reply-to: <20080206223030.GA11347@vox.robbo.home>
To: Robert Luberda
Cc: 109431@bugs.debian.org
Bcc: 460498@bugs.debian.org
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Hi,
Since #460498 is merged with #109431, I'm following up to the latter
which contains the main discussion.
On Wed, Feb 06, 2008 at 11:30:30PM +0100, Robert Luberda wrote:
> Yes, I'm aware of this issue. The doc-base hierarchy doesn't really suit
> documentation needs. Please see new hierarchy proposal (still based
> on the menu's one) at
> http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?msg=37;bug=109431
> I would appreciaty any opinions about this idea.
Well that discussion is familiar, indeed. Being one of the
originators of the proposal [1], I like it! I like it even after 6.5
years, so I'm consistent if nothing else. :-)
I think your proposed mapping is a step forward. However, I will
still offer some suggestions. In my view, there are two key ideas:
1. organize by endeavour rather than form, and
2. remove "catch all" sections like "miscellaneous".
The first principle is driven by the fact that if I'm writing a GUI
application, I'd look for the Qt docs under, say, "gui" rather than
"lib". The second principle is similar, actually: I'd look for an
Imagemagick app under "graphics" rather than "tools". A huge number
of things are "tools", so that has very little organizing power as a
section.
There are a couple of other principles one could apply:
3. keep the tree balanced, and
4. use the "menu" section when applicable.
Item #3 is just to keep the search efficient, while #4 reduces the
mental burden: I won't have to map between "Editors" on the menu and
"Editing" in doc-base.
With these princples in mind, I went through your proposed mappings
one by one. After that exercise, I realized that quite a number of my
choices are subjective. I can see why someone might make a difference
choice than me. I'm starting to wonder whether a more web-like
approach where a document could appear in multiple sections might
work.
Pragmatically, I wouldn't expect a sudden, radical change to be
tolerated well. I expect a lot of maintainers would be annoyed and
simply ignore the issue if you told them that their doc-base file had
to be fixed. Perhaps a gradual approach is best. For example, start
with documenting the preferred first- and second-level sections. This
addresses the proximal cause of me filing this bug: package
apt-dpkg-ref is in section Doc rather than Debian mainly because the
documentation for doc-base doesn't describe Section Debian (#153404).
In tandem, you might consider trying to fix only the most egregious
violators of the preferred sections. In my mind, these are the
generics (principle #2): Docs, Doc, Misc, Tools, Utilities, Utils, and
Viewers. Unfortunately, these are hard to deal with an automatic
mapping since some human has to sit down and figure out the correct
section. Perhaps the next step is to audit all these, document
preferred categories that will cover each, and file a bug on the
offending package.
Cheers,
-Steve
[1] http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/08/msg01022.html
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Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org:
Bug#109431; Package doc-base.
debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
X-Loop: owner@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Bug#109431: Bug#460498: Doc-base needs to augment Menu Policy (e.g. missing Debian section)
Reply-To: Robert Luberda , 109431@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Robert Luberda
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
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From: Robert Luberda
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To: "Steve M. Robbins" , 109431@bugs.debian.org
References: <20080113081237.31669.60388.reportbug@localhost> <20080206223030.GA11347@vox.robbo.home> <20080207040216.GC31175@sumost.ca>
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Steve M. Robbins writes:
Hi,
>
> 1. organize by endeavour rather than form, and
> 2. remove "catch all" sections like "miscellaneous".
>
> 3. keep the tree balanced, and
> 4. use the "menu" section when applicable.
Agree. The hierarchy will be based on the menu's one, which should make
it easy to meet your expectations.
> choice than me. I'm starting to wonder whether a more web-like
> approach where a document could appear in multiple sections might
> work.
This could be a great idea, I'll add this point to the TODO list.
>
> Pragmatically, I wouldn't expect a sudden, radical change to be
> tolerated well. I expect a lot of maintainers would be annoyed and
> simply ignore the issue if you told them that their doc-base file had
> to be fixed.
That's why doc-base implemented the section mapping, which already
reduced a mass we have in doc-base sections. At the last paragraph, you
wrote that this can't be done fully automatically, and I agree with
this - each maintainer should probably review their doc-base file
against the new sections list.
> Perhaps a gradual approach is best. For example, start
> with documenting the preferred first- and second-level sections. This
> addresses the proximal cause of me filing this bug: package
> apt-dpkg-ref is in section Doc rather than Debian mainly because the
> documentation for doc-base doesn't describe Section Debian (#153404).
Yeah, but the Doc section wasn't described either.
>
> In tandem, you might consider trying to fix only the most egregious
> violators of the preferred sections. In my mind, these are the
> generics (principle #2): Docs, Doc, Misc, Tools, Utilities, Utils, and
> Viewers.
The sections won't be included in the doc-base manual, except for
Viewers, which is also in menu hierarchy. However they will stay in the
mapping file only because it's impossible to do sensible automatic mapping.
Regards,
robert
Acknowledgement sent to Robert Luberda <robert@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list.
-t
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From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Robert Luberda
Subject: Bug#109431: Info received (Bug#109431: Bug#460498: Doc-base needs
to augment Menu Policy (e.g. missing Debian section))
Message-ID:
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From: Robert Luberda
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To: "Steve M. Robbins" , 109431@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#109431: Bug#460498: Doc-base needs to augment Menu Policy
(e.g. missing Debian section)
References: <20080113081237.31669.60388.reportbug@localhost> <20080206223030.GA11347@vox.robbo.home> <20080207040216.GC31175@sumost.ca>
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Steve M. Robbins writes:
Hi,
>
> 1. organize by endeavour rather than form, and
> 2. remove "catch all" sections like "miscellaneous".
>
> 3. keep the tree balanced, and
> 4. use the "menu" section when applicable.
Agree. The hierarchy will be based on the menu's one, which should make
it easy to meet your expectations.
> choice than me. I'm starting to wonder whether a more web-like
> approach where a document could appear in multiple sections might
> work.
This could be a great idea, I'll add this point to the TODO list.
>
> Pragmatically, I wouldn't expect a sudden, radical change to be
> tolerated well. I expect a lot of maintainers would be annoyed and
> simply ignore the issue if you told them that their doc-base file had
> to be fixed.
That's why doc-base implemented the section mapping, which already
reduced a mass we have in doc-base sections. At the last paragraph, you
wrote that this can't be done fully automatically, and I agree with
this - each maintainer should probably review their doc-base file
against the new sections list.
> Perhaps a gradual approach is best. For example, start
> with documenting the preferred first- and second-level sections. This
> addresses the proximal cause of me filing this bug: package
> apt-dpkg-ref is in section Doc rather than Debian mainly because the
> documentation for doc-base doesn't describe Section Debian (#153404).
Yeah, but the Doc section wasn't described either.
>
> In tandem, you might consider trying to fix only the most egregious
> violators of the preferred sections. In my mind, these are the
> generics (principle #2): Docs, Doc, Misc, Tools, Utilities, Utils, and
> Viewers.
The sections won't be included in the doc-base manual, except for
Viewers, which is also in menu hierarchy. However they will stay in the
mapping file only because it's impossible to do sensible automatic mapping.
Regards,
robert
Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Robert Luberda <robert@debian.org>:
Bug#109431; Package doc-base.
debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgRobert Luberda
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From: "Steve M. Robbins"
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On Sun, Feb 17, 2008 at 11:27:50AM +0100, Robert Luberda wrote:
> Steve M. Robbins writes:
> That's why doc-base implemented the section mapping, which already =20
> reduced a mass we have in doc-base sections. At the last paragraph, you =
=20
> wrote that this can't be done fully automatically, and I agree with =20
> this - each maintainer should probably review their doc-base file =20
> against the new sections list.
Another thought occurs to me: this change must really be well
communicated before the fact. If I'm a maintainer trying to find the
docs, the first place I'm going to look is the section I specified in
the doc-base file. If doc-base moves it behind my back, it's going to
make for a frustrating debugging session.
I would go so far as to suggest that you mail to
$package@packages.debian.org for each $package that is going to get
mapped. Probably best to bring this up on debian-devel first, come to
a consensus, then announce it on debian-devel-announce as well as to
the package maintainers affected.
>> Perhaps a gradual approach is best. For example, start
>> with documenting the preferred first- and second-level sections. This
>> addresses the proximal cause of me filing this bug: package
>> apt-dpkg-ref is in section Doc rather than Debian mainly because the
>> documentation for doc-base doesn't describe Section Debian (#153404).
>
> Yeah, but the Doc section wasn't described either.
True, and the apt-dpkg-ref maintainer hasn't responded since I
reopened the bug with that observation. :-)
>> violators of the preferred sections. In my mind, these are the
>> generics (principle #2): Docs, Doc, Misc, Tools, Utilities, Utils, and
>> Viewers.=20
>
> The sections won't be included in the doc-base manual, except for =20
> Viewers, which is also in menu hierarchy. However they will stay in the =
=20
> mapping file only because it's impossible to do sensible automatic=20
> mapping.
I ordered the principles by (my subjective opinion of) precedence.
Section Viewers violates principle #2 so it must be changed even if it
satisfies principle #4. YMMV :-)
Cheers,
-Steve
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Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Robert Luberda <robert@debian.org>.
-t
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To: "Steve M. Robbins"
Subject: Bug#109431: Info received (Bug#109431: Bug#460498: Doc-base needs
to augment Menu Policy (e.g. missing Debian section))
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Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2008 21:14:32 -0600
From: "Steve M. Robbins"
Subject: Re: Bug#109431: Bug#460498: Doc-base needs to augment Menu Policy
(e.g. missing Debian section)
In-reply-to: <47B80C26.4080905@debian.org>
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On Sun, Feb 17, 2008 at 11:27:50AM +0100, Robert Luberda wrote:
> Steve M. Robbins writes:
> That's why doc-base implemented the section mapping, which already =20
> reduced a mass we have in doc-base sections. At the last paragraph, you =
=20
> wrote that this can't be done fully automatically, and I agree with =20
> this - each maintainer should probably review their doc-base file =20
> against the new sections list.
Another thought occurs to me: this change must really be well
communicated before the fact. If I'm a maintainer trying to find the
docs, the first place I'm going to look is the section I specified in
the doc-base file. If doc-base moves it behind my back, it's going to
make for a frustrating debugging session.
I would go so far as to suggest that you mail to
$package@packages.debian.org for each $package that is going to get
mapped. Probably best to bring this up on debian-devel first, come to
a consensus, then announce it on debian-devel-announce as well as to
the package maintainers affected.
>> Perhaps a gradual approach is best. For example, start
>> with documenting the preferred first- and second-level sections. This
>> addresses the proximal cause of me filing this bug: package
>> apt-dpkg-ref is in section Doc rather than Debian mainly because the
>> documentation for doc-base doesn't describe Section Debian (#153404).
>
> Yeah, but the Doc section wasn't described either.
True, and the apt-dpkg-ref maintainer hasn't responded since I
reopened the bug with that observation. :-)
>> violators of the preferred sections. In my mind, these are the
>> generics (principle #2): Docs, Doc, Misc, Tools, Utilities, Utils, and
>> Viewers.=20
>
> The sections won't be included in the doc-base manual, except for =20
> Viewers, which is also in menu hierarchy. However they will stay in the =
=20
> mapping file only because it's impossible to do sensible automatic=20
> mapping.
I ordered the principles by (my subjective opinion of) precedence.
Section Viewers violates principle #2 so it must be changed even if it
satisfies principle #4. YMMV :-)
Cheers,
-Steve
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You have taken responsibility.
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Subject: Bug#109431: marked as done (rethinking and redesigning section
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Your message dated Sun, 24 Feb 2008 11:02:02 +0000
with message-id
and subject line Bug#109431: fixed in doc-base 0.8.10
has caused the Debian Bug report #109431,
regarding rethinking and redesigning section hierarchies
to be marked as done.
This means that you claim that the problem has been dealt with.
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Sender: adam@arroz.onshored.com
To: submit@bugs.debian.org
Subject: [Yoshito Komatsu ] Re: "Section" in *.doc-base file.
Organization: onShore Development, Inc
From: Adam Di Carlo
Date: 20 Aug 2001 18:22:16 -0400
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--=-=-=
Package: doc-base
From: Yoshito Komatsu
Hello.
Thank you for replying.
On Fri, Aug 17, 2001 at 10:26:53AM -0400, Adam Di Carlo wrote:
> > I started discussing about sections in doc-base
> > at debian-devel@lists.debian.org.
> >
> > Could you join us?
>
> No -- I'm not on that list and it's too high-volume for me.
>
> Please email me a summary of the discussion. Feel free to CC me on
> any emails about this, even on the list.
There are two idea about doc-base sections.
At present, most of *.doc-base files in my PC
seems to be located in sections according to menu-policy.
"We should make doc-base policy keeping the present state",
this is one idea.
Following this idea, sections will be as follows.
// Debian doc-base policy
Apps/
Desctiption:
Apps/ is a section for applications' documents.
All applications are filed according to its functionality.
(e.g. AbiWord under Apps/Editors, GIMP under Apps/Graphics,
GNotes! under Apps/Editors, Modem Lights applet under Apps/Net)
Subsections:
Databeses
Editors
Emulators
Graphics
Hamradio
Math
Net
Programming
Tools
Technical
Text
Shells
Multimedia
Viewers
System
Games
Help
Debian/
Description:
Debian/ is a section for specific documents of Debian.
(e.g. Debian Policy Manual, Debian Developer's Reference)
Devel/
Description:
Devel/ is a section for development.
(e.g. GTK+ Reference, HTML Reference, C Language Reference)
Documents for programming "application"(including IDEs,
unix-like tools for programming) are included in
Apps/Programming section.
Licenses/
Description:
Licenses/ is a section for licences.
(e.g. GNU General Public License, GNU Free Documentation License)
// Debian doc-base policy
But, some people think it's a mistake to make "Apps" a category
and we should think separately from menu-policy
because they think menu-policy isn't suitable to search
for documentation.
They make another draft, this is another idea.
Following this idea, sections will be as follows.
// Debian doc-base policy
Databases
Debian
Editors
Emulators
Games
Graphics
Licenses
Mathematics
Multimedia
Networking
Programming
Radio
Science
Shells
System Administration
Text
Viewers
// Debian doc-base policy
Which idea shoud we take?
For more information, please see a series of messages started from
"http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2001/debian-devel-200108/msg00869.html".
Regards,
--
Yoshito Komatsu
GPG key fingerprint: 4E0C 2629 6DC7 5EA7 3957 8982 2156 1D44 D12C 489D
--=-=-=
--
...Adam Di Carlo.....
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Source: doc-base
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We believe that the bug you reported is fixed in the latest version of
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doc-base_0.8.10.dsc
to pool/main/d/doc-base/doc-base_0.8.10.dsc
doc-base_0.8.10.tar.gz
to pool/main/d/doc-base/doc-base_0.8.10.tar.gz
doc-base_0.8.10_all.deb
to pool/main/d/doc-base/doc-base_0.8.10_all.deb
A summary of the changes between this version and the previous one is
attached.
Thank you for reporting the bug, which will now be closed. If you
have further comments please address them to 109431@bugs.debian.org,
and the maintainer will reopen the bug report if appropriate.
Debian distribution maintenance software
pp.
Robert Luberda (supplier of updated doc-base package)
(This message was generated automatically at their request; if you
believe that there is a problem with it please contact the archive
administrators by mailing ftpmaster@debian.org)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Format: 1.7
Date: Fri, 22 Feb 2008 23:59:05 +0100
Source: doc-base
Binary: doc-base
Architecture: source all
Version: 0.8.10
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Robert Luberda
Changed-By: Robert Luberda
Description:
doc-base - utilities to manage online documentation
Closes: 109431
Changes:
doc-base (0.8.10) unstable; urgency=low
.
* doc-base.sgml:
+ define real section hierarchy (closes: #109431), strongly based on the
menu one with a few doc-base specific sections added;
+ doc-base files should be UTF-8 encoded.
+ review TODO list.
* DocBaseFile.pm:
+ try to recode files to UTF-8 at install time,
+ warn on unknown doc-base sections.
* Utils.pm: Remove latin1 encoding support from HTMLEncode.
* While reregistering all documents run `dhelp_parse -r' to avoid index++
runs.
* Build with debhelper v6.
Files:
d792f9b187e60b6e4e23fa34d449cc19 540 doc optional doc-base_0.8.10.dsc
4cff5c7312a814dd13e3f8754ce4f4b8 38512 doc optional doc-base_0.8.10.tar.gz
3faca24ce0e60ffa26ed63f8d44142fd 66400 doc optional doc-base_0.8.10_all.deb
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------------=_1203853142-11546-0--
Notification sent to Adam Di Carlo <adam@onshore.com>:
Bug acknowledged by developer.
-t
MIME-Version: 1.0
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X-Loop: owner@bugs.debian.org
From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Adam Di Carlo
Subject: Bug#109431 closed by Robert Luberda
(Bug#109431: fixed in doc-base 0.8.10)
Message-ID:
References:
X-Debian-PR-Message: they-closed 109431
X-Debian-PR-Package: doc-base
X-Debian-PR-Source: doc-base
Reply-To: 109431@bugs.debian.org
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This is an automatic notification regarding your Bug report
which was filed against the doc-base package:
#109431: rethinking and redesigning section hierarchies
It has been closed by Robert Luberda .
Their explanation is attached below along with your original report.
If this explanation is unsatisfactory and you have not received a
better one in a separate message then please contact Robert Luberda by
replying to this email.
--=20
109431: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D109431
Debian Bug Tracking System
Contact owner@bugs.debian.org with problems
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