<strong>Report forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Orignal-Sender: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
Resent-Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 02:19:17 GMT
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.99324.B.99127508413807@bugs.debian.org>
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Received: via spool by submit@bugs.debian.org id=B.99127508413807
          (code B ref -1); Thu, 31 May 2001 02:19:17 GMT
From: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
To: Debian Bug Tracking System <submit@bugs.debian.org>
X-Reportbug-Version: 1.16
X-Mailer: reportbug 1.16
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 23:11:20 -0300
Message-Id: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb>
Sender: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Delivered-To: submit@bugs.debian.org

Package: debian-policy
Version: 3.5.4.0
Severity: wishlist

I think Debian should start to move into using UTF-8 by default everywhere.


Rationale:

The current 'standard' default character set is ISO-8859-1. This works fine
most of the time, however, it causes some problems. For instance, most of the
documentation is in ISO-8859-1 -- except the ones which are in languages that
need another charset. If a user is fluent in two languages which needs
incompatible charsets, he would have to keep switching charsets all the time.
To avoid this, a single charset which works for all languages should be used by
default.

Using UTF-8 by default in Debian would also have the added side benefit of
forcing all programs to properly handle variable-length multibyte charsets.

It could also be possible to add an UTF-8 encoded version for all locales
(could be a simple matter of changing the commented defaults in the list of
 locales). Having a single charset means that people using wildly different
charsets could be able to read/edit the same text files without having to
recode them.

Using UTF-8 in the name of files means that nobody's file name would look like
gibberish for someone else just because the charsets being used are different.

Last but not least, someone has to take the lead and be the first to do it.
Debian has done it before in things like consistent keyboard handling. The
structure of Debian makes it the ideal place to initiatives which touch a lot
of things like this one.

For people who aren't using UTF-8, if /usr/doc is consistently coded in UTF8,
it'd be possible to use Apache tricks to force its enconding as UTF-8 when
viewed using the http://localhost/doc/ default URL.

-- System Information
Debian Release: testing/unstable
Architecture: i386
Kernel: Linux flower 2.4.5 #1 Tue May 29 18:09:30 BRT 2001 i686
Locale: LANG=en_US.ISO8859-1, LC_CTYPE=C

Versions of packages debian-policy depends on:
ii  fileutils                     4.1-2      GNU file management utilities.    





<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Cesar Eduardo Barros &lt;cesarb@nitnet.com.br&gt;</code>:<br>
New Bug report received and forwarded.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Subject: Bug#99324: Acknowledgement (Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B.99127508413807.ack@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb>
References: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack 99324

Thank you for the problem report you have sent regarding Debian.
This is an automatically generated reply, to let you know your message has
been received.  It is being forwarded to the developers mailing list for
their attention; they will reply in due course.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to submit further information on your problem, please send
it to 99324@bugs.debian.org (and *not* to
submit@bugs.debian.org).

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at submit) by bugs.debian.org; 31 May 2001 02:11:24 +0000
From cesarb@nitnet.com.br Wed May 30 21:11:24 2001
Return-path: <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
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	by master.debian.org with smtp (Exim 3.12 1 (Debian))
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  by itaipu.nitnet.com.br with SMTP; 31 May 2001 02:11:21 -0000
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	id 155Hvk-0000uL-00; Wed, 30 May 2001 23:11:20 -0300
From: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
To: Debian Bug Tracking System <submit@bugs.debian.org>
Subject: Default charset should be UTF-8
X-Reportbug-Version: 1.16
X-Mailer: reportbug 1.16
Date: Wed, 30 May 2001 23:11:20 -0300
Message-Id: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb>
Sender: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Delivered-To: submit@bugs.debian.org

Package: debian-policy
Version: 3.5.4.0
Severity: wishlist

I think Debian should start to move into using UTF-8 by default everywhere.


Rationale:

The current 'standard' default character set is ISO-8859-1. This works fine
most of the time, however, it causes some problems. For instance, most of the
documentation is in ISO-8859-1 -- except the ones which are in languages that
need another charset. If a user is fluent in two languages which needs
incompatible charsets, he would have to keep switching charsets all the time.
To avoid this, a single charset which works for all languages should be used by
default.

Using UTF-8 by default in Debian would also have the added side benefit of
forcing all programs to properly handle variable-length multibyte charsets.

It could also be possible to add an UTF-8 encoded version for all locales
(could be a simple matter of changing the commented defaults in the list of
 locales). Having a single charset means that people using wildly different
charsets could be able to read/edit the same text files without having to
recode them.

Using UTF-8 in the name of files means that nobody's file name would look like
gibberish for someone else just because the charsets being used are different.

Last but not least, someone has to take the lead and be the first to do it.
Debian has done it before in things like consistent keyboard handling. The
structure of Debian makes it the ideal place to initiatives which touch a lot
of things like this one.

For people who aren't using UTF-8, if /usr/doc is consistently coded in UTF8,
it'd be possible to use Apache tricks to force its enconding as UTF-8 when
viewed using the http://localhost/doc/ default URL.

-- System Information
Debian Release: testing/unstable
Architecture: i386
Kernel: Linux flower 2.4.5 #1 Tue May 29 18:09:30 BRT 2001 i686
Locale: LANG=en_US.ISO8859-1, LC_CTYPE=C

Versions of packages debian-policy depends on:
ii  fileutils                     4.1-2      GNU file management utilities.    





<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
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Received: via spool by 99324-submit@bugs.debian.org id=B99324.99127872919471
          (code B ref 99324); Thu, 31 May 2001 03:18:08 GMT
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 13:11:58 +1000
To: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Message-ID: <20010531131158.B27395@azure.humbug.org.au>
References: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb>
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Organisation: Lacking
X-PGP: http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/aj_key.asc
From: Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au>
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org


--TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:11:20PM -0300, Cesar Eduardo Barros wrote:
> Package: debian-policy
> Version: 3.5.4.0
> Severity: wishlist
>=20
> I think Debian should start to move into using UTF-8 by default everywher=
e.

What, exactly, does this involve?

(Now's probably a bad time, too)

Cheers,
aj

--=20
Anthony Towns <aj@humbug.org.au> <http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/>
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

``_Any_ increase in interface difficulty, in exchange for a benefit you
  do not understand, cannot perceive, or don't care about, is too much.''
                      -- John S. Novak, III (The Humblest Man on the Net)

--TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
Content-Disposition: inline

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.4 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iQCVAwUBOxW2fuRRvX9xctrtAQFhqgP+OqhYDBOl8REQT3Jomcju/MaMN2A69pd5
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QytnLcw9OYU=
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--TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc--




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Anthony Towns &lt;aj@azure.humbug.org.au&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99127872919471.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010531131158.B27395@azure.humbug.org.au>
References: <20010531131158.B27395@azure.humbug.org.au>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 31 May 2001 03:12:09 +0000
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Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 13:11:58 +1000
To: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Message-ID: <20010531131158.B27395@azure.humbug.org.au>
References: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb>
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Organisation: Lacking
X-PGP: http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/aj_key.asc
From: Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au>
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--TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc
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Content-Disposition: inline
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On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:11:20PM -0300, Cesar Eduardo Barros wrote:
> Package: debian-policy
> Version: 3.5.4.0
> Severity: wishlist
>=20
> I think Debian should start to move into using UTF-8 by default everywher=
e.

What, exactly, does this involve?

(Now's probably a bad time, too)

Cheers,
aj

--=20
Anthony Towns <aj@humbug.org.au> <http://azure.humbug.org.au/~aj/>
I don't speak for anyone save myself. GPG signed mail preferred.

``_Any_ increase in interface difficulty, in exchange for a benefit you
  do not understand, cannot perceive, or don't care about, is too much.''
                      -- John S. Novak, III (The Humblest Man on the Net)

--TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
Content-Disposition: inline

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
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iQCVAwUBOxW2fuRRvX9xctrtAQFhqgP+OqhYDBOl8REQT3Jomcju/MaMN2A69pd5
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QytnLcw9OYU=
=Wv4r
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--TakKZr9L6Hm6aLOc--




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Orignal-Sender: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
Resent-Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 03:33:29 GMT
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99127953020475@bugs.debian.org>
Resent-Sender: owner@bugs.debian.org
X-Debian-PR-Message: report 99324
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Received: via spool by 99324-submit@bugs.debian.org id=B99324.99127953020475
          (code B ref 99324); Thu, 31 May 2001 03:33:29 GMT
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 00:25:19 -0300
To: Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au>
Cc: 99324@bugs.debian.org
Message-ID: <20010531002519.A4183@flower.cesarb>
References: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb> <20010531131158.B27395@azure.humbug.org.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <20010531131158.B27395@azure.humbug.org.au>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i
From: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Sender: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Thu, May 31, 2001 at 01:11:58PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:11:20PM -0300, Cesar Eduardo Barros wrote:
> > Package: debian-policy
> > Version: 3.5.4.0
> > Severity: wishlist
> > 
> > I think Debian should start to move into using UTF-8 by default everywhere.
> 
> What, exactly, does this involve?

- Making sure everything works with UTF-8 charset
- Adding UTF-8 charset for every locale
- Converting (in debian/rules) documentation files to UTF-8
- Selecting en_US.UTF-8 (or something like that) as the default for LANG=
- Echoing some magic sequence on every getty to convert the kernel mode to UTF8

> (Now's probably a bad time, too)

I know. I just wanted to present the idea while it was fresh. I too think it
would only become possible after the next release. In fact, it's good timing
since there's plenty of time for discussion.

Making sure everything works with UTF-8 can be started already. Adding the UTF8
charset for every locale might be as simple as editing a config file (I don't
know libc6 very well, but I hope it would recode the message catalogs if that
is done).

-- 
Cesar Eduardo Barros
cesarb@nitnet.com.br
cesarb@dcc.ufrj.br




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Cesar Eduardo Barros &lt;cesarb@nitnet.com.br&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99127953020475.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010531002519.A4183@flower.cesarb>
References: <20010531002519.A4183@flower.cesarb>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 31 May 2001 03:25:30 +0000
From cesarb@nitnet.com.br Wed May 30 22:25:30 2001
Return-path: <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Received: from itaipu.nitnet.com.br [200.255.111.241] 
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	id 155J5L-00016F-00; Thu, 31 May 2001 00:25:19 -0300
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 00:25:19 -0300
To: Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au>
Cc: 99324@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Message-ID: <20010531002519.A4183@flower.cesarb>
References: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb> <20010531131158.B27395@azure.humbug.org.au>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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From: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Sender: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Thu, May 31, 2001 at 01:11:58PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
> On Wed, May 30, 2001 at 11:11:20PM -0300, Cesar Eduardo Barros wrote:
> > Package: debian-policy
> > Version: 3.5.4.0
> > Severity: wishlist
> > 
> > I think Debian should start to move into using UTF-8 by default everywhere.
> 
> What, exactly, does this involve?

- Making sure everything works with UTF-8 charset
- Adding UTF-8 charset for every locale
- Converting (in debian/rules) documentation files to UTF-8
- Selecting en_US.UTF-8 (or something like that) as the default for LANG=
- Echoing some magic sequence on every getty to convert the kernel mode to UTF8

> (Now's probably a bad time, too)

I know. I just wanted to present the idea while it was fresh. I too think it
would only become possible after the next release. In fact, it's good timing
since there's plenty of time for discussion.

Making sure everything works with UTF-8 can be started already. Adding the UTF8
charset for every locale might be as simple as editing a config file (I don't
know libc6 very well, but I hope it would recode the message catalogs if that
is done).

-- 
Cesar Eduardo Barros
cesarb@nitnet.com.br
cesarb@dcc.ufrj.br




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Brian May <bam@debian.org>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Brian May <bam@debian.org>
Orignal-Sender: bam@snoopy.apana.org.au
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
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          (code B ref 99324); Thu, 31 May 2001 04:18:10 GMT
Sender: bam@snoopy.apana.org.au
To: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Cc: 99324@bugs.debian.org, Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au>
References: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb>
	<20010531131158.B27395@azure.humbug.org.au>
	<20010531002519.A4183@flower.cesarb>
From: Brian May <bam@debian.org>
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Date: 31 May 2001 14:04:39 +1000
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

>>>>> "Cesar" == Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br> writes:

    Cesar> - Making sure everything works with UTF-8 charset

Biggest problem for me, here (unless that has changed in the past
month or so) is xemacs. Probably the same for emacs too, not
sure. Once I opened a message, and Gnus had heart failure when it said
it couldn't find the UTF-8 charset inside xemacs (actually, the
message was ISO-8859-1, so it doesn't entirely make sense),

(I don't have a UTF-8 font installed, but I haven't looked hard, yet;
there are probably plenty of choices already packaged for Debian;
however, I doubt that is the reason for xemacs not supporting it).

    Cesar> - Adding UTF-8 charset for every locale
    Cesar> - Converting (in debian/rules) documentation files to UTF-8
    Cesar> - Selecting en_US.UTF-8 (or something like that) as the default for LANG=
    Cesar> - Echoing some magic sequence on every getty to convert the kernel mode to UTF8

These sound like time consuming tasks, so the sooner we start, the
better.  Just don't expect to finish for a while (eg. aim for
woody+1).

First priority should be to ensure that all programs work with
UTF-8. Ideally, this should be done for woody (but may not be
possible).

How do tools (eg. debconf) know what coding set to use when reading a
file (eg. templates file)? Or, is ISO-8859-1 assumed?
-- 
Brian May <bam@debian.org>




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Brian May &lt;bam@debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Brian May <bam@debian.org>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99128188825476.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <84d78qrwo8.fsf@snoopy.apana.org.au>
References: <84d78qrwo8.fsf@snoopy.apana.org.au>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 31 May 2001 04:04:48 +0000
From bam@debian.org Wed May 30 23:04:48 2001
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	id 16E32C99A; Thu, 31 May 2001 14:04:39 +1000 (EST)
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To: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Cc: 99324@bugs.debian.org, Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au>
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
References: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb>
	<20010531131158.B27395@azure.humbug.org.au>
	<20010531002519.A4183@flower.cesarb>
From: Brian May <bam@debian.org>
X-Home-Page: http://snoopy.apana.org.au/~bam/
Date: 31 May 2001 14:04:39 +1000
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Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

>>>>> "Cesar" == Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br> writes:

    Cesar> - Making sure everything works with UTF-8 charset

Biggest problem for me, here (unless that has changed in the past
month or so) is xemacs. Probably the same for emacs too, not
sure. Once I opened a message, and Gnus had heart failure when it said
it couldn't find the UTF-8 charset inside xemacs (actually, the
message was ISO-8859-1, so it doesn't entirely make sense),

(I don't have a UTF-8 font installed, but I haven't looked hard, yet;
there are probably plenty of choices already packaged for Debian;
however, I doubt that is the reason for xemacs not supporting it).

    Cesar> - Adding UTF-8 charset for every locale
    Cesar> - Converting (in debian/rules) documentation files to UTF-8
    Cesar> - Selecting en_US.UTF-8 (or something like that) as the default for LANG=
    Cesar> - Echoing some magic sequence on every getty to convert the kernel mode to UTF8

These sound like time consuming tasks, so the sooner we start, the
better.  Just don't expect to finish for a while (eg. aim for
woody+1).

First priority should be to ensure that all programs work with
UTF-8. Ideally, this should be done for woody (but may not be
possible).

How do tools (eg. debconf) know what coding set to use when reading a
file (eg. templates file)? Or, is ISO-8859-1 assumed?
-- 
Brian May <bam@debian.org>




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Fumitoshi UKAI <ukai@debian.or.jp>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Fumitoshi UKAI <ukai@debian.or.jp>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
Resent-Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 14:33:25 GMT
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Received: via spool by 99324-submit@bugs.debian.org id=B99324.991318824781
          (code B ref 99324); Thu, 31 May 2001 14:33:25 GMT
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:18:38 +0900
Message-ID: <873d9lbo01.wl@mistral.ukai.org>
From: Fumitoshi UKAI <ukai@debian.or.jp>
To: Brian May <bam@debian.org>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Cc: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>,
	Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au>
In-Reply-To: <84d78qrwo8.fsf@snoopy.apana.org.au>
References: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb>
	<20010531131158.B27395@azure.humbug.org.au>
	<20010531002519.A4183@flower.cesarb>
	<84d78qrwo8.fsf@snoopy.apana.org.au>
User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.4.1 (Stand By Me) SEMI/1.14.3 (Ushinoya) FLIM/1.14.2 (Yagi-Nishiguchi) APEL/10.3 Emacs/21.0.103 (i386-debian-linux-gnu) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI)
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

At 31 May 2001 14:04:39 +1000,
Brian May wrote:

> >>>>> "Cesar" == Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br> writes:
> 
>     Cesar> - Making sure everything works with UTF-8 charset
> 
> Biggest problem for me, here (unless that has changed in the past
> month or so) is xemacs. Probably the same for emacs too, not
> sure. Once I opened a message, and Gnus had heart failure when it said
> it couldn't find the UTF-8 charset inside xemacs (actually, the
> message was ISO-8859-1, so it doesn't entirely make sense),

AFAIK, emacsen could handle UTF-8 with mule-ucs package.
If policy claims to make sure everything works with UTF-8 charset, 
should mule-ucs be merged into each emacsen?

>     Cesar> - Adding UTF-8 charset for every locale
>     Cesar> - Converting (in debian/rules) documentation files to UTF-8
>     Cesar> - Selecting en_US.UTF-8 (or something like that) as the default for LANG=
>     Cesar> - Echoing some magic sequence on every getty to convert the kernel mode to UTF8

Is kernel support UTF-8 other than latin chars?

> These sound like time consuming tasks, so the sooner we start, the
> better.  Just don't expect to finish for a while (eg. aim for
> woody+1).
> 
> First priority should be to ensure that all programs work with
> UTF-8. Ideally, this should be done for woody (but may not be
> possible).

I don't think it's possible for woody.
 
> How do tools (eg. debconf) know what coding set to use when reading a
> file (eg. templates file)? Or, is ISO-8859-1 assumed?

debconf doesn't assume any encoding, does it?
We're usually using EUC-JP charset for debconf.

Regards,
Fumitoshi UKAI




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Fumitoshi UKAI &lt;ukai@debian.or.jp&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Fumitoshi UKAI <ukai@debian.or.jp>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.991318824781.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <873d9lbo01.wl@mistral.ukai.org>
References: <873d9lbo01.wl@mistral.ukai.org>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 31 May 2001 14:20:24 +0000
From ukai@debian.or.jp Thu May 31 09:20:24 2001
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	id 028F6529CD; Thu, 31 May 2001 23:20:19 +0900 (JST)
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:18:38 +0900
Message-ID: <873d9lbo01.wl@mistral.ukai.org>
From: Fumitoshi UKAI <ukai@debian.or.jp>
To: Brian May <bam@debian.org>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Cc: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>,
	Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au>
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
In-Reply-To: <84d78qrwo8.fsf@snoopy.apana.org.au>
References: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb>
	<20010531131158.B27395@azure.humbug.org.au>
	<20010531002519.A4183@flower.cesarb>
	<84d78qrwo8.fsf@snoopy.apana.org.au>
User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.4.1 (Stand By Me) SEMI/1.14.3 (Ushinoya) FLIM/1.14.2 (Yagi-Nishiguchi) APEL/10.3 Emacs/21.0.103 (i386-debian-linux-gnu) MULE/5.0 (SAKAKI)
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Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

At 31 May 2001 14:04:39 +1000,
Brian May wrote:

> >>>>> "Cesar" == Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br> writes:
> 
>     Cesar> - Making sure everything works with UTF-8 charset
> 
> Biggest problem for me, here (unless that has changed in the past
> month or so) is xemacs. Probably the same for emacs too, not
> sure. Once I opened a message, and Gnus had heart failure when it said
> it couldn't find the UTF-8 charset inside xemacs (actually, the
> message was ISO-8859-1, so it doesn't entirely make sense),

AFAIK, emacsen could handle UTF-8 with mule-ucs package.
If policy claims to make sure everything works with UTF-8 charset, 
should mule-ucs be merged into each emacsen?

>     Cesar> - Adding UTF-8 charset for every locale
>     Cesar> - Converting (in debian/rules) documentation files to UTF-8
>     Cesar> - Selecting en_US.UTF-8 (or something like that) as the default for LANG=
>     Cesar> - Echoing some magic sequence on every getty to convert the kernel mode to UTF8

Is kernel support UTF-8 other than latin chars?

> These sound like time consuming tasks, so the sooner we start, the
> better.  Just don't expect to finish for a while (eg. aim for
> woody+1).
> 
> First priority should be to ensure that all programs work with
> UTF-8. Ideally, this should be done for woody (but may not be
> possible).

I don't think it's possible for woody.
 
> How do tools (eg. debconf) know what coding set to use when reading a
> file (eg. templates file)? Or, is ISO-8859-1 assumed?

debconf doesn't assume any encoding, does it?
We're usually using EUC-JP charset for debconf.

Regards,
Fumitoshi UKAI




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Orignal-Sender: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
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Received: via spool by 99324-submit@bugs.debian.org id=B99324.99133913031703
          (code B ref 99324); Thu, 31 May 2001 20:04:48 GMT
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:58:43 -0300
To: Fumitoshi UKAI <ukai@debian.or.jp>
Cc: Brian May <bam@debian.org>, 99324@bugs.debian.org,
	Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au>
Message-ID: <20010531165843.A518@flower.cesarb>
References: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb> <20010531131158.B27395@azure.humbug.org.au> <20010531002519.A4183@flower.cesarb> <84d78qrwo8.fsf@snoopy.apana.org.au> <873d9lbo01.wl@mistral.ukai.org>
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User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i
From: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Sender: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Thu, May 31, 2001 at 11:18:38PM +0900, Fumitoshi UKAI wrote:
> > How do tools (eg. debconf) know what coding set to use when reading a
> > file (eg. templates file)? Or, is ISO-8859-1 assumed?
> 
> debconf doesn't assume any encoding, does it?
> We're usually using EUC-JP charset for debconf.
> 

I think debconf should use UTF-8 for the templates and recode on the fly.
There's nothing worse than having gibberish in ten different charsets in the
same template file.

Of course, using UTF-8 would make things much harder for translators unless
Debian used UTF-8 by default... :-|

-- 
Cesar Eduardo Barros
cesarb@nitnet.com.br
cesarb@dcc.ufrj.br




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Cesar Eduardo Barros &lt;cesarb@nitnet.com.br&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99133913031703.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010531165843.A518@flower.cesarb>
References: <20010531165843.A518@flower.cesarb>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 31 May 2001 19:58:50 +0000
From cesarb@nitnet.com.br Thu May 31 14:58:49 2001
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Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 16:58:43 -0300
To: Fumitoshi UKAI <ukai@debian.or.jp>
Cc: Brian May <bam@debian.org>, 99324@bugs.debian.org,
	Anthony Towns <aj@azure.humbug.org.au>
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Message-ID: <20010531165843.A518@flower.cesarb>
References: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb> <20010531131158.B27395@azure.humbug.org.au> <20010531002519.A4183@flower.cesarb> <84d78qrwo8.fsf@snoopy.apana.org.au> <873d9lbo01.wl@mistral.ukai.org>
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From: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Sender: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Thu, May 31, 2001 at 11:18:38PM +0900, Fumitoshi UKAI wrote:
> > How do tools (eg. debconf) know what coding set to use when reading a
> > file (eg. templates file)? Or, is ISO-8859-1 assumed?
> 
> debconf doesn't assume any encoding, does it?
> We're usually using EUC-JP charset for debconf.
> 

I think debconf should use UTF-8 for the templates and recode on the fly.
There's nothing worse than having gibberish in ten different charsets in the
same template file.

Of course, using UTF-8 would make things much harder for translators unless
Debian used UTF-8 by default... :-|

-- 
Cesar Eduardo Barros
cesarb@nitnet.com.br
cesarb@dcc.ufrj.br




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Christian Kurz <shorty@debian.org>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Christian Kurz <shorty@debian.org>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
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          (code B ref 99324); Thu, 31 May 2001 22:06:59 GMT
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 21:06:10 +0200
From: Christian Kurz <shorty@debian.org>
To: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>,
	99324@bugs.debian.org
Message-ID: <20010531210610.A762@seteuid.getuid.de>
References: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb>
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--9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR
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On 01-05-30 Cesar Eduardo Barros wrote:
> Package: debian-policy
> Version: 3.5.4.0
> Severity: wishlist
> 
> I think Debian should start to move into using UTF-8 by default everywhere.

May I ask why we want to choose UTF-8 instead of UTF-5 or UTF-16? And
why should we exactly switch to Unicode? How many real world system or
applications currently support and/or use unicode?

Christian
-- 
           Debian Developer (http://www.debian.org)
1024/26CC7853 31E6 A8CA 68FC 284F 7D16  63EC A9E6 67FF 26CC 7853

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--9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR--




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Christian Kurz &lt;shorty@debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Christian Kurz <shorty@debian.org>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99134642729532.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010531210610.A762@seteuid.getuid.de>
References: <20010531210610.A762@seteuid.getuid.de>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



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Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 21:06:10 +0200
From: Christian Kurz <shorty@debian.org>
To: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>,
	99324@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Message-ID: <20010531210610.A762@seteuid.getuid.de>
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On 01-05-30 Cesar Eduardo Barros wrote:
> Package: debian-policy
> Version: 3.5.4.0
> Severity: wishlist
> 
> I think Debian should start to move into using UTF-8 by default everywhere.

May I ask why we want to choose UTF-8 instead of UTF-5 or UTF-16? And
why should we exactly switch to Unicode? How many real world system or
applications currently support and/or use unicode?

Christian
-- 
           Debian Developer (http://www.debian.org)
1024/26CC7853 31E6 A8CA 68FC 284F 7D16  63EC A9E6 67FF 26CC 7853

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--9jxsPFA5p3P2qPhR--




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Orignal-Sender: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
Resent-Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 22:33:06 GMT
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.9913483799060@bugs.debian.org>
Resent-Sender: owner@bugs.debian.org
X-Debian-PR-Message: report 99324
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Received: via spool by 99324-submit@bugs.debian.org id=B99324.9913483799060
          (code B ref 99324); Thu, 31 May 2001 22:33:06 GMT
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:32:52 -0300
To: Christian Kurz <shorty@debian.org>
Cc: 99324@bugs.debian.org
Message-ID: <20010531193252.A1735@flower.cesarb>
References: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb> <20010531210610.A762@seteuid.getuid.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <20010531210610.A762@seteuid.getuid.de>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i
From: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Sender: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Thu, May 31, 2001 at 09:06:10PM +0200, Christian Kurz wrote:
> On 01-05-30 Cesar Eduardo Barros wrote:
> > Package: debian-policy
> > Version: 3.5.4.0
> > Severity: wishlist
> > 
> > I think Debian should start to move into using UTF-8 by default everywhere.
> 
> May I ask why we want to choose UTF-8 instead of UTF-5 or UTF-16? And
> why should we exactly switch to Unicode? How many real world system or
> applications currently support and/or use unicode?

Ask the IETF. They seem to like UTF8 a lot.

Ask Linus too. The UTF8 support is in the kernel since, what, 2.0.x?

Seriously, tough:

- UTF8 preserves the meaning of all the 0-127 range, so no problems with
  special chars and escapes (as long as you use only ASCII you don't even
  notice it's there). The other UTF encodings weren't designed for that. The
  RFC which describes UTF8 (RFC 2279) says:

  # UTF-8, the object of this memo, has
  # the characteristic of preserving the full US-ASCII range, providing
  # compatibility with file systems, parsers and other software that rely
  # on US-ASCII values but are transparent to other values.

- UTF8 allow the full range of Unicode (which means that any charset should be
  a subset of it. All other UTFs do it too.)
- Where did you find that UTF-5? I just knew of UTF-7, UTF-8 and UTF-16...
  UTF7 is a standard which doesn't uses the high bit, so if an app isn't aware
  of it it might misinterpret the high characters are a string of normal chars.
  UTF16, AFAIK, is a standard for enconding the 32-bit UCS4 in 16 bit words.

As to why to switch to UTF8: first, it's only a default (Debian is all about
choice) and a standard charset for /usr/share/doc to be into. Second, it's a
general tendency to be moving away from having to switch charsets all the time
and towards using Unicode.

Applications which currently use Unicode which I know of are Mozilla (since
UTF8 is the default charset of XML IIRC, and used in a lot of places in the
net), and the Win32 systems (including Wine. M$ seems to have done it in a
horribly messy way, but I can't judge since I'm not a Windows programmer). I'm
sure there are many more. But support is not a problem; we have the source
don't we? Using UTF8 as a default is more of a long-term suggestion to be done
in 1 or 2 Debian releases (which probably means at least four full years =) )

-- 
Cesar Eduardo Barros
cesarb@nitnet.com.br
cesarb@dcc.ufrj.br




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Cesar Eduardo Barros &lt;cesarb@nitnet.com.br&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.9913483799060.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010531193252.A1735@flower.cesarb>
References: <20010531193252.A1735@flower.cesarb>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 31 May 2001 22:32:59 +0000
From cesarb@nitnet.com.br Thu May 31 17:32:59 2001
Return-path: <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Received: from itaipu.nitnet.com.br [200.255.111.241] 
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	id 155azs-0000Tk-00; Thu, 31 May 2001 19:32:52 -0300
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 19:32:52 -0300
To: Christian Kurz <shorty@debian.org>
Cc: 99324@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Message-ID: <20010531193252.A1735@flower.cesarb>
References: <E155Hvk-0000uL-00@flower.cesarb> <20010531210610.A762@seteuid.getuid.de>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i
From: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Sender: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Thu, May 31, 2001 at 09:06:10PM +0200, Christian Kurz wrote:
> On 01-05-30 Cesar Eduardo Barros wrote:
> > Package: debian-policy
> > Version: 3.5.4.0
> > Severity: wishlist
> > 
> > I think Debian should start to move into using UTF-8 by default everywhere.
> 
> May I ask why we want to choose UTF-8 instead of UTF-5 or UTF-16? And
> why should we exactly switch to Unicode? How many real world system or
> applications currently support and/or use unicode?

Ask the IETF. They seem to like UTF8 a lot.

Ask Linus too. The UTF8 support is in the kernel since, what, 2.0.x?

Seriously, tough:

- UTF8 preserves the meaning of all the 0-127 range, so no problems with
  special chars and escapes (as long as you use only ASCII you don't even
  notice it's there). The other UTF encodings weren't designed for that. The
  RFC which describes UTF8 (RFC 2279) says:

  # UTF-8, the object of this memo, has
  # the characteristic of preserving the full US-ASCII range, providing
  # compatibility with file systems, parsers and other software that rely
  # on US-ASCII values but are transparent to other values.

- UTF8 allow the full range of Unicode (which means that any charset should be
  a subset of it. All other UTFs do it too.)
- Where did you find that UTF-5? I just knew of UTF-7, UTF-8 and UTF-16...
  UTF7 is a standard which doesn't uses the high bit, so if an app isn't aware
  of it it might misinterpret the high characters are a string of normal chars.
  UTF16, AFAIK, is a standard for enconding the 32-bit UCS4 in 16 bit words.

As to why to switch to UTF8: first, it's only a default (Debian is all about
choice) and a standard charset for /usr/share/doc to be into. Second, it's a
general tendency to be moving away from having to switch charsets all the time
and towards using Unicode.

Applications which currently use Unicode which I know of are Mozilla (since
UTF8 is the default charset of XML IIRC, and used in a lot of places in the
net), and the Win32 systems (including Wine. M$ seems to have done it in a
horribly messy way, but I can't judge since I'm not a Windows programmer). I'm
sure there are many more. But support is not a problem; we have the source
don't we? Using UTF8 as a default is more of a long-term suggestion to be done
in 1 or 2 Debian releases (which probably means at least four full years =) )

-- 
Cesar Eduardo Barros
cesarb@nitnet.com.br
cesarb@dcc.ufrj.br




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
Resent-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 02:03:48 GMT
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99135996917041@bugs.debian.org>
Resent-Sender: owner@bugs.debian.org
X-Debian-PR-Message: report 99324
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Received: via spool by 99324-submit@bugs.debian.org id=B99324.99135996917041
          (code B ref 99324); Fri, 01 Jun 2001 02:03:48 GMT
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 03:31:53 +0200
From: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>
To: 99324@bugs.debian.org
Message-ID: <20010601033152.A6231@wonderland.linux.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <20010531193252.A1735@flower.cesarb>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Jun 01, Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br> wrote:

 >Ask the IETF. They seem to like UTF8 a lot.
Because it's ASCII-compatible. This is not relevant.

 >Ask Linus too. The UTF8 support is in the kernel since, what, 2.0.x?
Because it's ASCII-compatibile. This is not relevant.

UTF-8 maybe be useful for things like debconf templates as long as it's
able to recode on the fly to the $LC_CTYPE encoding, but don't you dare
fucking with the locales for languages and countries you don't know
about.
Making sure applications can deal with UTF-8 is ok, things like recoding
the documentation are not.

Most people (with the possible exception of part of the CJK community)
do not want to use unicode yet, deal with it.

-- 
ciao,
Marco




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Marco d'Itri &lt;md@Linux.IT&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99135996917041.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010601033152.A6231@wonderland.linux.it>
References: <20010601033152.A6231@wonderland.linux.it>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 1 Jun 2001 01:46:09 +0000
From md@linux.it Thu May 31 20:46:09 2001
Return-path: <md@linux.it>
Received: from attila.bofh.it [213.92.8.2] (postfix)
	by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 1 (Debian))
	id 155e0v-0004Qm-00; Thu, 31 May 2001 20:46:09 -0500
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	id 47DD06098A; Fri,  1 Jun 2001 03:46:07 +0200 (CEST)
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	id 1D16F18186; Fri,  1 Jun 2001 03:31:53 +0200 (CEST)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 03:31:53 +0200
From: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>
To: 99324@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Message-ID: <20010601033152.A6231@wonderland.linux.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <20010531193252.A1735@flower.cesarb>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Jun 01, Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br> wrote:

 >Ask the IETF. They seem to like UTF8 a lot.
Because it's ASCII-compatible. This is not relevant.

 >Ask Linus too. The UTF8 support is in the kernel since, what, 2.0.x?
Because it's ASCII-compatibile. This is not relevant.

UTF-8 maybe be useful for things like debconf templates as long as it's
able to recode on the fly to the $LC_CTYPE encoding, but don't you dare
fucking with the locales for languages and countries you don't know
about.
Making sure applications can deal with UTF-8 is ok, things like recoding
the documentation are not.

Most people (with the possible exception of part of the CJK community)
do not want to use unicode yet, deal with it.

-- 
ciao,
Marco




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>
Orignal-Sender: Joey Hess <joey@silk.kitenet.net>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
Resent-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 03:33:03 GMT
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99136581630837@bugs.debian.org>
Resent-Sender: owner@bugs.debian.org
X-Debian-PR-Message: report 99324
X-Debian-PR-Package: debian-policy
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X-Loop: owner@bugs.debian.org
Received: via spool by 99324-submit@bugs.debian.org id=B99324.99136581630837
          (code B ref 99324); Fri, 01 Jun 2001 03:33:03 GMT
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:27:41 -0400
From: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>
To: Fumitoshi UKAI <ukai@debian.or.jp>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Message-ID: <20010531232741.C12862@kitenet.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
In-Reply-To: <873d9lbo01.wl@mistral.ukai.org>
User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i
Sender: Joey Hess <joey@silk.kitenet.net>
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

Fumitoshi UKAI wrote:
> debconf doesn't assume any encoding, does it?
> We're usually using EUC-JP charset for debconf.

No, debconf knows about as little about l10n and i18n as I.

I'm glad to hear the Japanese stuff works btw.

-- 
see shy jo




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Joey Hess &lt;joeyh@debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99136581630837.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010531232741.C12862@kitenet.net>
References: <20010531232741.C12862@kitenet.net>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 1 Jun 2001 03:23:36 +0000
From joey@silk.kitenet.net Thu May 31 22:23:36 2001
Return-path: <joey@silk.kitenet.net>
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	id 155fbC-0006E4-00; Thu, 31 May 2001 23:27:42 -0400
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:27:41 -0400
From: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>
To: Fumitoshi UKAI <ukai@debian.or.jp>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Message-ID: <20010531232741.C12862@kitenet.net>
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Sender: Joey Hess <joey@silk.kitenet.net>
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

Fumitoshi UKAI wrote:
> debconf doesn't assume any encoding, does it?
> We're usually using EUC-JP charset for debconf.

No, debconf knows about as little about l10n and i18n as I.

I'm glad to hear the Japanese stuff works btw.

-- 
see shy jo




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>
Orignal-Sender: Joey Hess <joey@silk.kitenet.net>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
Resent-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 03:33:07 GMT
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Received: via spool by 99324-submit@bugs.debian.org id=B99324.99136596431105
          (code B ref 99324); Fri, 01 Jun 2001 03:33:07 GMT
Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:30:07 -0400
From: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>
To: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Message-ID: <20010531233007.D12862@kitenet.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

Cesar Eduardo Barros wrote:
> I think debconf should use UTF-8 for the templates and recode on the fly.

Well, if you send in a patch, I will consider it.

> There's nothing worse than having gibberish in ten different charsets in the
> same template file.

This is why the template file is the "compiled" form. You're intended to
merge together a bunch of files that just have one (or 2, with English)
languages in them. See debconf-mergetemplate(1).

-- 
see shy jo




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Joey Hess &lt;joeyh@debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99136596431105.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010531233007.D12862@kitenet.net>
References: <20010531233007.D12862@kitenet.net>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 1 Jun 2001 03:26:04 +0000
From joey@silk.kitenet.net Thu May 31 22:26:04 2001
Return-path: <joey@silk.kitenet.net>
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Date: Thu, 31 May 2001 23:30:07 -0400
From: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>
To: Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Message-ID: <20010531233007.D12862@kitenet.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

Cesar Eduardo Barros wrote:
> I think debconf should use UTF-8 for the templates and recode on the fly.

Well, if you send in a patch, I will consider it.

> There's nothing worse than having gibberish in ten different charsets in the
> same template file.

This is why the template file is the "compiled" form. You're intended to
merge together a bunch of files that just have one (or 2, with English)
languages in them. See debconf-mergetemplate(1).

-- 
see shy jo




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Sam TH <sam@uchicago.edu>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Sam TH <sam@uchicago.edu>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
Resent-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 07:37:25 GMT
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.9913805024363@bugs.debian.org>
Resent-Sender: owner@bugs.debian.org
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Received: via spool by 99324-submit@bugs.debian.org id=B99324.9913805024363
          (code B ref 99324); Fri, 01 Jun 2001 07:37:25 GMT
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 02:46:43 -0500
From: Sam TH <sam@uchicago.edu>
To: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Message-ID: <20010601024643.E11115@uchicago.edu>
References: <20010531193252.A1735@flower.cesarb> <20010601033152.A6231@wonderland.linux.it>
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In-Reply-To: <20010601033152.A6231@wonderland.linux.it>; from md@Linux.IT on Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:31:53AM +0200
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org


--NtwzykIc2mflq5ck
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On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:31:53AM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:

> Most people (with the possible exception of part of the CJK community)
> do not want to use unicode yet, deal with it.

Actually, most people who aren't using a Latin or Cyrillic alphabet
want Unicode.  Which is most people, period.  Bad i18n is a bug, and a
serious one.  Deal with it is not a reasonable response. =20
          =20
sam th --- sam@uchicago.edu --- http://www.abisource.com/~sam/
OpenPGP Key: CABD33FC --- http://samth.dyndns.org/key
DeCSS: http://samth.dyndns.org/decss


--NtwzykIc2mflq5ck
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Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE7F0hit+kM0Mq9M/wRAuj7AKC/6KhWt+XsIJzjChDQTvK3cmCG+gCePujD
mJzyWx6qzuGzcj1xaF3RweU=
=j4Cr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--NtwzykIc2mflq5ck--




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Sam TH &lt;sam@uchicago.edu&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Sam TH <sam@uchicago.edu>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.9913805024363.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010601024643.E11115@uchicago.edu>
References: <20010601024643.E11115@uchicago.edu>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 1 Jun 2001 07:28:22 +0000
From sam@uchicago.edu Fri Jun 01 02:28:22 2001
Return-path: <sam@uchicago.edu>
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	id 396866A28; Fri,  1 Jun 2001 02:46:43 -0500 (CDT)
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 02:46:43 -0500
From: Sam TH <sam@uchicago.edu>
To: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Message-ID: <20010601024643.E11115@uchicago.edu>
References: <20010531193252.A1735@flower.cesarb> <20010601033152.A6231@wonderland.linux.it>
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Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org


--NtwzykIc2mflq5ck
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:31:53AM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:

> Most people (with the possible exception of part of the CJK community)
> do not want to use unicode yet, deal with it.

Actually, most people who aren't using a Latin or Cyrillic alphabet
want Unicode.  Which is most people, period.  Bad i18n is a bug, and a
serious one.  Deal with it is not a reasonable response. =20
          =20
sam th --- sam@uchicago.edu --- http://www.abisource.com/~sam/
OpenPGP Key: CABD33FC --- http://samth.dyndns.org/key
DeCSS: http://samth.dyndns.org/decss


--NtwzykIc2mflq5ck
Content-Type: application/pgp-signature
Content-Disposition: inline

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.0.5 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org

iD8DBQE7F0hit+kM0Mq9M/wRAuj7AKC/6KhWt+XsIJzjChDQTvK3cmCG+gCePujD
mJzyWx6qzuGzcj1xaF3RweU=
=j4Cr
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

--NtwzykIc2mflq5ck--




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
Resent-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:18:02 GMT
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99139427312543@bugs.debian.org>
Resent-Sender: owner@bugs.debian.org
X-Debian-PR-Message: report 99324
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X-Loop: owner@bugs.debian.org
Received: via spool by 99324-submit@bugs.debian.org id=B99324.99139427312543
          (code B ref 99324); Fri, 01 Jun 2001 11:18:02 GMT
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:17:43 +0200
From: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
To: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Cc: debian-policy@lists.debian.org
Message-ID: <20010601131743.B26998@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
References: <20010531165843.A518@flower.cesarb> <20010531233007.D12862@kitenet.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Content-Disposition: inline
User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.17i
In-Reply-To: <20010531233007.D12862@kitenet.net>; from joeyh@debian.org on Thu, May 31, 2001 at 11:30:07PM -0400
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Thu, May 31, 2001 at 11:30:07PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> Cesar Eduardo Barros wrote:
> > I think debconf should use UTF-8 for the templates and recode on the fly.
> 
> Well, if you send in a patch, I will consider it.

Probably libc ought to support it (when there is all the i18n stuff
built in). Maybe it already does, who knows...

> 
> > There's nothing worse than having gibberish in ten different charsets in the
> > same template file.
> 
> This is why the template file is the "compiled" form. You're intended to
> merge together a bunch of files that just have one (or 2, with English)
> languages in them. See debconf-mergetemplate(1).

even so...


For the beginning I would propose something like this to go into policy:

Documentation of debian packages, if written in language requiring
characters outside of 7-bit ASCII range, should use either well-established
encoding for the given language (such as ISO-8859-2 for some central- and
easter europe languages, KOI8-R for Russian, JIS for Japanese etc...),
or UTF-8 encoding. Maintainers are being encouradged to use UTF-8, having in 
mind the general tendency toward unified character encoding.

Original upstream documentation, if in encoding other than UTF-8 _or_
the well-established encoding for the particular language, should be 
converted either to UTF-8 or to the well-established encoding.
Choice between UTF-8 and other encoding is left at the maintainer 
discretion, however, one package should (must?) have all the documentation 
in one consistent encoding.

Names of maintainers, upstream authors and other data in packages'
descriptions and related data files (such as debian/changelog,
debian/control), as well as in English language documentation, should be
either transliterated or transcribed to ASCII, or used in UTF-8 encoding
- again, at the discretion of the maintainer. However, for names in
scripts based on non-latin alphabets, ASCII (or suitable latin-script)
version should be provided along with original name.

-- 
 -----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabik http://melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__    garabik @ melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk     |
 -----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Radovan Garabik &lt;garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99139427312543.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010601131743.B26998@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
References: <20010601131743.B26998@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 1 Jun 2001 11:17:53 +0000
From garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk Fri Jun 01 06:17:53 2001
Return-path: <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
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	id 155mw3-0007FZ-00; Fri, 01 Jun 2001 13:17:43 +0200
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:17:43 +0200
From: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
To: Joey Hess <joeyh@debian.org>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Cc: debian-policy@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Message-ID: <20010601131743.B26998@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
References: <20010531165843.A518@flower.cesarb> <20010531233007.D12862@kitenet.net>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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In-Reply-To: <20010531233007.D12862@kitenet.net>; from joeyh@debian.org on Thu, May 31, 2001 at 11:30:07PM -0400
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Thu, May 31, 2001 at 11:30:07PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
> Cesar Eduardo Barros wrote:
> > I think debconf should use UTF-8 for the templates and recode on the fly.
> 
> Well, if you send in a patch, I will consider it.

Probably libc ought to support it (when there is all the i18n stuff
built in). Maybe it already does, who knows...

> 
> > There's nothing worse than having gibberish in ten different charsets in the
> > same template file.
> 
> This is why the template file is the "compiled" form. You're intended to
> merge together a bunch of files that just have one (or 2, with English)
> languages in them. See debconf-mergetemplate(1).

even so...


For the beginning I would propose something like this to go into policy:

Documentation of debian packages, if written in language requiring
characters outside of 7-bit ASCII range, should use either well-established
encoding for the given language (such as ISO-8859-2 for some central- and
easter europe languages, KOI8-R for Russian, JIS for Japanese etc...),
or UTF-8 encoding. Maintainers are being encouradged to use UTF-8, having in 
mind the general tendency toward unified character encoding.

Original upstream documentation, if in encoding other than UTF-8 _or_
the well-established encoding for the particular language, should be 
converted either to UTF-8 or to the well-established encoding.
Choice between UTF-8 and other encoding is left at the maintainer 
discretion, however, one package should (must?) have all the documentation 
in one consistent encoding.

Names of maintainers, upstream authors and other data in packages'
descriptions and related data files (such as debian/changelog,
debian/control), as well as in English language documentation, should be
either transliterated or transcribed to ASCII, or used in UTF-8 encoding
- again, at the discretion of the maintainer. However, for names in
scripts based on non-latin alphabets, ASCII (or suitable latin-script)
version should be provided along with original name.

-- 
 -----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabik http://melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__    garabik @ melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk     |
 -----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
Resent-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 12:03:35 GMT
Resent-Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99139623818888@bugs.debian.org>
Resent-Sender: owner@bugs.debian.org
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X-Loop: owner@bugs.debian.org
Received: via spool by 99324-submit@bugs.debian.org id=B99324.99139623818888
          (code B ref 99324); Fri, 01 Jun 2001 12:03:35 GMT
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:50:24 +0200
From: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
To: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Cc: debian-policy@lists.debian.org
Message-ID: <20010601135024.C26998@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
References: <20010531193252.A1735@flower.cesarb> <20010601033152.A6231@wonderland.linux.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline
User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.17i
In-Reply-To: <20010601033152.A6231@wonderland.linux.it>; from md@Linux.IT on Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:31:53AM +0200
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:31:53AM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Jun 01, Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br> wrote:
> 
>  >Ask the IETF. They seem to like UTF8 a lot.
> Because it's ASCII-compatible. This is not relevant.
> 
>  >Ask Linus too. The UTF8 support is in the kernel since, what, 2.0.x?
> Because it's ASCII-compatibile. This is not relevant.

This IS relevant. 
We just CANNOT forget ASCII, as much as we would like to.
And, when we already want something (mostly) upwards compatible
with ASCII _and_ being the one and only unified encoding, 
why not to choose UTF-8, since it already IS a standard?

> 
> UTF-8 maybe be useful for things like debconf templates as long as it's
> able to recode on the fly to the $LC_CTYPE encoding, but don't you dare
> fucking with the locales for languages and countries you don't know
> about.

All the locales should be in UTF-8. Point.

<semirant>
Otherwise you are just contributing to the great mess.
Recently I wanted to adjust a computer for one particular user,
who speaks Lithuanian, Slovak, Russian (in this order), but only a bit of english
So my naive[*] guess wat to try something like export LANGUAGE=lt:sk:cs:ru
Guess what? IT CAN NEVER WORK! lt, sk and ru locales use three different 
encodings.

[*] I'd like to type naive properly, with i-diaeresis, but I just cannot,
since it is not in ISO-8859-2 encoding my console is switched to

I have a user who speaks slovak and italian... again no luck, she even 
cannot write mails properly with diacritics in both languages, since that
requires to change the console font, chanke the keymap, AND TO EDIT
/etc/Muttrc file.


> Making sure applications can deal with UTF-8 is ok, things like recoding
> the documentation are not.

I stumbled across a package, uhm, more of them actually, one had
documentation in Polish, one in Russian... now if I had not known
before that Polish uses (fortunately) the same ISO-8859-2 encoding as
Slovak, and that the Russian documentation is most[**] likely written
in KOI8-R (and even more fortunately I've already set up russian fonts),
I would have had a difficult time reading the documentation.


[**] It happens to me more often than I would like: I download a program,
with documentation in (guess) Russian. Switch my console to KOI-8, type less...
uhm... gibberish. Use konwert to convert from CP1251 to koi8-r, pipe to less...
still gibberish... try ISO-8859-5, still nothing..
Some head scratches, ls /usr/share/konwert/filters, pondering about what could be
other russian encodings... trying CP866, still gibberish... giving up in disgust,
maybe it was japanese or chinese, god knows

Several days later found out it was in ECMA-cyrillic.


> 
> Most people (with the possible exception of part of the CJK community)
> do not want to use unicode yet, deal with it.
> 

Most people do not care about the encoding, they just want to 
USE the computer productively. THEY CANNOT because of the mess in encodings.

I resigned from diacritics in my name for the purpose of communicating
(yes, there IS diacritics in my name). How would you feel if you HAD TO
write your name Marco Ditri, just because there happened to be no common
encoding where the apostrophe  has the same numerical representation?
I recently needed to set up database of some people... guess what, most
of them had  A LOT of Slovak diacritics in names, but some of them
were French with french diacritics... UTF-8 was about the only way, even
if it was a bit painful (and the later need to add cyrillic names
went perfectly without glitches, thanks to UTF-8)


Americans have it easy. People using languages falling into ISO Latin group
category have it a bit difficult, but acceptable... as long as they do not
want to communicate with people from some OTHER ISO Lating groups.
Then is turns to be hell.

</semirant>
 

-- 
 -----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabik http://melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__    garabik @ melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk     |
 -----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Radovan Garabik &lt;garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99139623818888.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010601135024.C26998@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
References: <20010601135024.C26998@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 1 Jun 2001 11:50:38 +0000
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Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:50:24 +0200
From: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
To: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Cc: debian-policy@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Message-ID: <20010601135024.C26998@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
References: <20010531193252.A1735@flower.cesarb> <20010601033152.A6231@wonderland.linux.it>
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In-Reply-To: <20010601033152.A6231@wonderland.linux.it>; from md@Linux.IT on Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:31:53AM +0200
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 03:31:53AM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Jun 01, Cesar Eduardo Barros <cesarb@nitnet.com.br> wrote:
> 
>  >Ask the IETF. They seem to like UTF8 a lot.
> Because it's ASCII-compatible. This is not relevant.
> 
>  >Ask Linus too. The UTF8 support is in the kernel since, what, 2.0.x?
> Because it's ASCII-compatibile. This is not relevant.

This IS relevant. 
We just CANNOT forget ASCII, as much as we would like to.
And, when we already want something (mostly) upwards compatible
with ASCII _and_ being the one and only unified encoding, 
why not to choose UTF-8, since it already IS a standard?

> 
> UTF-8 maybe be useful for things like debconf templates as long as it's
> able to recode on the fly to the $LC_CTYPE encoding, but don't you dare
> fucking with the locales for languages and countries you don't know
> about.

All the locales should be in UTF-8. Point.

<semirant>
Otherwise you are just contributing to the great mess.
Recently I wanted to adjust a computer for one particular user,
who speaks Lithuanian, Slovak, Russian (in this order), but only a bit of english
So my naive[*] guess wat to try something like export LANGUAGE=lt:sk:cs:ru
Guess what? IT CAN NEVER WORK! lt, sk and ru locales use three different 
encodings.

[*] I'd like to type naive properly, with i-diaeresis, but I just cannot,
since it is not in ISO-8859-2 encoding my console is switched to

I have a user who speaks slovak and italian... again no luck, she even 
cannot write mails properly with diacritics in both languages, since that
requires to change the console font, chanke the keymap, AND TO EDIT
/etc/Muttrc file.


> Making sure applications can deal with UTF-8 is ok, things like recoding
> the documentation are not.

I stumbled across a package, uhm, more of them actually, one had
documentation in Polish, one in Russian... now if I had not known
before that Polish uses (fortunately) the same ISO-8859-2 encoding as
Slovak, and that the Russian documentation is most[**] likely written
in KOI8-R (and even more fortunately I've already set up russian fonts),
I would have had a difficult time reading the documentation.


[**] It happens to me more often than I would like: I download a program,
with documentation in (guess) Russian. Switch my console to KOI-8, type less...
uhm... gibberish. Use konwert to convert from CP1251 to koi8-r, pipe to less...
still gibberish... try ISO-8859-5, still nothing..
Some head scratches, ls /usr/share/konwert/filters, pondering about what could be
other russian encodings... trying CP866, still gibberish... giving up in disgust,
maybe it was japanese or chinese, god knows

Several days later found out it was in ECMA-cyrillic.


> 
> Most people (with the possible exception of part of the CJK community)
> do not want to use unicode yet, deal with it.
> 

Most people do not care about the encoding, they just want to 
USE the computer productively. THEY CANNOT because of the mess in encodings.

I resigned from diacritics in my name for the purpose of communicating
(yes, there IS diacritics in my name). How would you feel if you HAD TO
write your name Marco Ditri, just because there happened to be no common
encoding where the apostrophe  has the same numerical representation?
I recently needed to set up database of some people... guess what, most
of them had  A LOT of Slovak diacritics in names, but some of them
were French with french diacritics... UTF-8 was about the only way, even
if it was a bit painful (and the later need to add cyrillic names
went perfectly without glitches, thanks to UTF-8)


Americans have it easy. People using languages falling into ISO Latin group
category have it a bit difficult, but acceptable... as long as they do not
want to communicate with people from some OTHER ISO Lating groups.
Then is turns to be hell.

</semirant>
 

-- 
 -----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabik http://melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__    garabik @ melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk     |
 -----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
Resent-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 12:18:24 GMT
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Received: via spool by 99324-submit@bugs.debian.org id=B99324.99139732628665
          (code B ref 99324); Fri, 01 Jun 2001 12:18:24 GMT
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:56:42 +0200
From: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>
To: 99324@bugs.debian.org
Message-ID: <20010601135642.B1987@wonderland.linux.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Jun 01, Josip Rodin <joy@cibalia.gkvk.hr> wrote:

 >Nice things these general tendencies... in my country we still have problems
 >using ISO 8859-2 because Windows 1250 has polluted everything. Adding
 >another one to the pile is likely to screw things up even more. <sigh>
This is the reason we can't just switch the terminals to UTF-8, there
are way too many programs which can't correctly recode ISO-8859-* text,
because they are broken or because the charset is unlabeled.
Let's first fix the software, then we'll talk about using UTF-8 by
default for everybody.

-- 
ciao,
Marco




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Marco d'Itri &lt;md@Linux.IT&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99139732628665.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010601135642.B1987@wonderland.linux.it>
References: <20010601135642.B1987@wonderland.linux.it>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 1 Jun 2001 12:08:46 +0000
From md@linux.it Fri Jun 01 07:08:46 2001
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Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 13:56:42 +0200
From: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>
To: 99324@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Message-ID: <20010601135642.B1987@wonderland.linux.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Jun 01, Josip Rodin <joy@cibalia.gkvk.hr> wrote:

 >Nice things these general tendencies... in my country we still have problems
 >using ISO 8859-2 because Windows 1250 has polluted everything. Adding
 >another one to the pile is likely to screw things up even more. <sigh>
This is the reason we can't just switch the terminals to UTF-8, there
are way too many programs which can't correctly recode ISO-8859-* text,
because they are broken or because the charset is unlabeled.
Let's first fix the software, then we'll talk about using UTF-8 by
default for everybody.

-- 
ciao,
Marco




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
Resent-Date: Fri, 01 Jun 2001 12:19:34 GMT
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Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:07:59 +0200
From: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>
Cc: 99324@bugs.debian.org
Message-ID: <20010601140759.D1987@wonderland.linux.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Jun 01, Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk> wrote:

 >[*] I'd like to type naive properly, with i-diaeresis, but I just cannot,
 >since it is not in ISO-8859-2 encoding my console is switched to
I'm not arguing about this. I agree that in a perfect world everybody
would be using unicode, encoded as UTF-8 or UTF-16. My point is that
there is too much broken software to switch now to UTF-8.

 >[**] It happens to me more often than I would like: I download a program,
 >with documentation in (guess) Russian. Switch my console to KOI-8, type less...
 >uhm... gibberish. Use konwert to convert from CP1251 to koi8-r, pipe to less...
 >still gibberish... try ISO-8859-5, still nothing..
 >Some head scratches, ls /usr/share/konwert/filters, pondering about what could be
 >other russian encodings... trying CP866, still gibberish... giving up in disgust,
 >maybe it was japanese or chinese, god knows
 >
 >Several days later found out it was in ECMA-cyrillic.
This is a good point, but it's something which should be discussed among
russian developers (do we have any?). I'm not going to dictate them the
encoding they should use.
Maybe right now what they really need is a patched less which can invoke
iconv, I don't know.

-- 
ciao,
Marco




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Marco d'Itri &lt;md@Linux.IT&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99139732628669.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010601140759.D1987@wonderland.linux.it>
References: <20010601140759.D1987@wonderland.linux.it>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 1 Jun 2001 12:08:46 +0000
From md@linux.it Fri Jun 01 07:08:46 2001
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Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:07:59 +0200
From: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>
Cc: 99324@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Message-ID: <20010601140759.D1987@wonderland.linux.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Jun 01, Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk> wrote:

 >[*] I'd like to type naive properly, with i-diaeresis, but I just cannot,
 >since it is not in ISO-8859-2 encoding my console is switched to
I'm not arguing about this. I agree that in a perfect world everybody
would be using unicode, encoded as UTF-8 or UTF-16. My point is that
there is too much broken software to switch now to UTF-8.

 >[**] It happens to me more often than I would like: I download a program,
 >with documentation in (guess) Russian. Switch my console to KOI-8, type less...
 >uhm... gibberish. Use konwert to convert from CP1251 to koi8-r, pipe to less...
 >still gibberish... try ISO-8859-5, still nothing..
 >Some head scratches, ls /usr/share/konwert/filters, pondering about what could be
 >other russian encodings... trying CP866, still gibberish... giving up in disgust,
 >maybe it was japanese or chinese, god knows
 >
 >Several days later found out it was in ECMA-cyrillic.
This is a good point, but it's something which should be discussed among
russian developers (do we have any?). I'm not going to dictate them the
encoding they should use.
Maybe right now what they really need is a patched less which can invoke
iconv, I don't know.

-- 
ciao,
Marco




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
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Received: via spool by 99324-submit@bugs.debian.org id=B99324.99139732628670
          (code B ref 99324); Fri, 01 Jun 2001 12:19:43 GMT
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:00:34 +0200
From: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>
To: 99324@bugs.debian.org
Message-ID: <20010601140034.C1987@wonderland.linux.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
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User-Agent: Mutt/1.3.18i
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Jun 01, Roland Mas <lolando@debian.org> wrote:

 >> Most people (with the possible exception of part of the CJK
 >> community) do not want to use unicode yet, deal with it.
 >
 >Excuse me?  "With the possible exception of the CJK community"?  What
 >about people speaking (and writing/typing) Arabic, Hebrew, Greek,
 >Russian and whatnot?
I don't know about Arabic and Hebrew, but russian people don't like
unicode and do not want to switch from the KOI-8 and KOI-8r encodings.

 >  I gather you're Italian, so you might need some
 >accents (I remember seeing some "è").
Yes, and I already have a correctly working national encoding, thank you.

 >  In *my* experience, most people *do* want to use Unicode.  I would
Just don't force it on everybody else.

I'd love to be able to use unicode for everything, but the reality is
that the software is not yet good enough to support it to the same level
of the national encodings.

-- 
ciao,
Marco




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Marco d'Itri &lt;md@Linux.IT&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.99139732628670.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010601140034.C1987@wonderland.linux.it>
References: <20010601140034.C1987@wonderland.linux.it>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 1 Jun 2001 12:08:46 +0000
From md@linux.it Fri Jun 01 07:08:46 2001
Return-path: <md@linux.it>
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Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:00:34 +0200
From: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>
To: 99324@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Message-ID: <20010601140034.C1987@wonderland.linux.it>
Mime-Version: 1.0
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Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Jun 01, Roland Mas <lolando@debian.org> wrote:

 >> Most people (with the possible exception of part of the CJK
 >> community) do not want to use unicode yet, deal with it.
 >
 >Excuse me?  "With the possible exception of the CJK community"?  What
 >about people speaking (and writing/typing) Arabic, Hebrew, Greek,
 >Russian and whatnot?
I don't know about Arabic and Hebrew, but russian people don't like
unicode and do not want to switch from the KOI-8 and KOI-8r encodings.

 >  I gather you're Italian, so you might need some
 >accents (I remember seeing some "è").
Yes, and I already have a correctly working national encoding, thank you.

 >  In *my* experience, most people *do* want to use Unicode.  I would
Just don't force it on everybody else.

I'd love to be able to use unicode for everything, but the reality is
that the software is not yet good enough to support it to the same level
of the national encodings.

-- 
ciao,
Marco




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org
Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
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Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:45:12 +0200
From: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
To: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Message-ID: <20010601144512.A28881@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
References: <20010601133112.B7815@cibalia.gkvk.hr> <20010601135642.B1987@wonderland.linux.it>
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In-Reply-To: <20010601135642.B1987@wonderland.linux.it>; from md@Linux.IT on Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:56:42PM +0200
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:56:42PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Jun 01, Josip Rodin <joy@cibalia.gkvk.hr> wrote:
> 
>  >Nice things these general tendencies... in my country we still have problems
>  >using ISO 8859-2 because Windows 1250 has polluted everything. Adding
>  >another one to the pile is likely to screw things up even more. <sigh>
> This is the reason we can't just switch the terminals to UTF-8, there
> are way too many programs which can't correctly recode ISO-8859-* text,
> because they are broken or because the charset is unlabeled.

so we first make them work with ISO-8859-*, then work on making applications
work with UTF-8, then work on making those terminals display UTF-8?
I can see a shortcut here...

> Let's first fix the software, then we'll talk about using UTF-8 by
> default for everybody.

but fix it which way?
To support CP1250? ISO-8859-2? CP852?
Or KOI8-R? CP1251? EMCA? CP866?

better concentrate on UTF-8, it indeed does solve many
problems
better let the old terminals die... if we had not let
the old Czechoslovak Kamenicky encoding to die, but 
focused instead on fixing the software, we would have much
bigger mess than there is now.

All the i18n stuff in glibc is a bit flawed... it assumes you
NEVER want to change the default locale while the program is running,
and it assumes everybody has correct terminal.

Have you seen konwert package? It is really nice, glibc's
iconv(3) should have been like this and there would be one problem less...

Ideal (under the circumstances) would be:

have glibc work internaly in UTF-8 unconditionaly
Output is transliterated according to terminal charset
(ideally UTF-8, so no conversion is necessary).
Terminal charset can be switched over _on the fly_, maybe
via SIG-SOMETHING to glibc

locales are in UTF-8 unconditionaly
isprint(3) returns 1 for UTF-8 characters (fuzzy here... but it 
definitely should not be tied to locale), actual displaying the character
is handled by konwert-like output routine

You want your ISO-8859-1 console with locales?
No problem, do export OUTPUTCHARSER=ISO-8859-1 and glibc
will transliterate eventual russian fortunes into latin script...
and strip diacritics from Slovak names.

readline, stty & co. are UTF-8 aware
input can be recoded to UTF-8 if necessary, but ideally it is
already coming in UTF-8 (the biggest problems are text editors here, maybe
use filterm(1) for old applications)
Input encoding, too, can be changed on the fly.

have X work in UTF-8
xkb sends UTF-8, default font encoding is UTF-8

allow UTF-8 in /etc/passwd. Damn. I was bitten by this a few days ago.
8-bit chars in GECOS behave unpredictably

-- 
 -----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabik http://melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__    garabik @ melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk     |
 -----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Radovan Garabik &lt;garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.9913995272170.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010601144512.A28881@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
References: <20010601144512.A28881@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 1 Jun 2001 12:45:27 +0000
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Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:45:12 +0200
From: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
To: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Message-ID: <20010601144512.A28881@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
References: <20010601133112.B7815@cibalia.gkvk.hr> <20010601135642.B1987@wonderland.linux.it>
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In-Reply-To: <20010601135642.B1987@wonderland.linux.it>; from md@Linux.IT on Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:56:42PM +0200
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 01:56:42PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Jun 01, Josip Rodin <joy@cibalia.gkvk.hr> wrote:
> 
>  >Nice things these general tendencies... in my country we still have problems
>  >using ISO 8859-2 because Windows 1250 has polluted everything. Adding
>  >another one to the pile is likely to screw things up even more. <sigh>
> This is the reason we can't just switch the terminals to UTF-8, there
> are way too many programs which can't correctly recode ISO-8859-* text,
> because they are broken or because the charset is unlabeled.

so we first make them work with ISO-8859-*, then work on making applications
work with UTF-8, then work on making those terminals display UTF-8?
I can see a shortcut here...

> Let's first fix the software, then we'll talk about using UTF-8 by
> default for everybody.

but fix it which way?
To support CP1250? ISO-8859-2? CP852?
Or KOI8-R? CP1251? EMCA? CP866?

better concentrate on UTF-8, it indeed does solve many
problems
better let the old terminals die... if we had not let
the old Czechoslovak Kamenicky encoding to die, but 
focused instead on fixing the software, we would have much
bigger mess than there is now.

All the i18n stuff in glibc is a bit flawed... it assumes you
NEVER want to change the default locale while the program is running,
and it assumes everybody has correct terminal.

Have you seen konwert package? It is really nice, glibc's
iconv(3) should have been like this and there would be one problem less...

Ideal (under the circumstances) would be:

have glibc work internaly in UTF-8 unconditionaly
Output is transliterated according to terminal charset
(ideally UTF-8, so no conversion is necessary).
Terminal charset can be switched over _on the fly_, maybe
via SIG-SOMETHING to glibc

locales are in UTF-8 unconditionaly
isprint(3) returns 1 for UTF-8 characters (fuzzy here... but it 
definitely should not be tied to locale), actual displaying the character
is handled by konwert-like output routine

You want your ISO-8859-1 console with locales?
No problem, do export OUTPUTCHARSER=ISO-8859-1 and glibc
will transliterate eventual russian fortunes into latin script...
and strip diacritics from Slovak names.

readline, stty & co. are UTF-8 aware
input can be recoded to UTF-8 if necessary, but ideally it is
already coming in UTF-8 (the biggest problems are text editors here, maybe
use filterm(1) for old applications)
Input encoding, too, can be changed on the fly.

have X work in UTF-8
xkb sends UTF-8, default font encoding is UTF-8

allow UTF-8 in /etc/passwd. Damn. I was bitten by this a few days ago.
8-bit chars in GECOS behave unpredictably

-- 
 -----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabik http://melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__    garabik @ melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk     |
 -----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!




<strong>Information forwarded</strong> to <code>debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>:<br>
<code>Bug#99324</code>; Package <code>debian-policy</code>.


debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDebian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

Subject: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Reply-To: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Resent-From: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
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Resent-CC: Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>
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Received: via spool by 99324-submit@bugs.debian.org id=B99324.9913998953191
          (code B ref 99324); Fri, 01 Jun 2001 14:09:43 GMT
Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:51:20 +0200
From: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
To: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Message-ID: <20010601145120.B28881@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
References: <87y9rc5yxv.fsf@cachemir.echo-net.net> <20010601140034.C1987@wonderland.linux.it>
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In-Reply-To: <20010601140034.C1987@wonderland.linux.it>; from md@Linux.IT on Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:00:34PM +0200
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:00:34PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Jun 01, Roland Mas <lolando@debian.org> wrote:
> 
>  >> Most people (with the possible exception of part of the CJK
>  >> community) do not want to use unicode yet, deal with it.
>  >
>  >Excuse me?  "With the possible exception of the CJK community"?  What
>  >about people speaking (and writing/typing) Arabic, Hebrew, Greek,
>  >Russian and whatnot?
> I don't know about Arabic and Hebrew, but russian people don't like
> unicode and do not want to switch from the KOI-8 and KOI-8r encodings.
> 

UNLESS they need to communicate with people from other charset groups
(It directly concerns me - I need(ed) to work with both russian and slovak)


>  >  I gather you're Italian, so you might need some
>  >accents (I remember seeing some "?").
> Yes, and I already have a correctly working national encoding, thank you.
> 

Do you?
Just send me a mail in italian... and we'll see how much of its
accents will display as '?'
And I already have a correctly working national encoding, too.

>  >  In *my* experience, most people *do* want to use Unicode.  I would
> Just don't force it on everybody else.

I agree... as long as you do not force ISO-8859-1 (or anything) on everybody,
as it is currently in debian.
Remember, debian is international

> 
> I'd love to be able to use unicode for everything, but the reality is
> that the software is not yet good enough to support it to the same level
> of the national encodings.
> 

So let's fix the software. 
All my programs are if not unicode aware, then at least not unicode hostile.

-- 
 -----------------------------------------------------------
| Radovan Garabik http://melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk/~garabik/ |
| __..--^^^--..__    garabik @ melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk     |
 -----------------------------------------------------------
Antivirus alert: file .signature infected by signature virus.
Hi! I'm a signature virus! Copy me into your signature file to help me spread!




<strong>Acknowledgement sent</strong> to <code>Radovan Garabik &lt;garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk&gt;</code>:<br>
Extra info received and forwarded to list.  Copy sent to <code>Debian Policy List &lt;debian-policy@lists.debian.org&gt;</code>.


-t

From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System)
To: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
Subject: Bug#99324: Info received (was Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8)
Message-ID: <handler.99324.B99324.9913998953191.ackinfo@bugs.debian.org>
In-Reply-To: <20010601145120.B28881@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
References: <20010601145120.B28881@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 99324

Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding
this problem report.  It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and
to the developers mailing list to accompany the original report.

Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s):
 Debian Policy List <debian-policy@lists.debian.org>

If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem,
please send it to 99324@bugs.debian.org, as before.

Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message,
unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system.

Darren Benham
(administrator, Debian Bugs database)



Received: (at 99324) by bugs.debian.org; 1 Jun 2001 12:51:35 +0000
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Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2001 14:51:20 +0200
From: Radovan Garabik <garabik@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
To: Marco d'Itri <md@Linux.IT>, 99324@bugs.debian.org
Subject: Re: Bug#99324: Default charset should be UTF-8
Message-ID: <20010601145120.B28881@melkor.dnp.fmph.uniba.sk>
References: <87y9rc5yxv.fsf@cachemir.echo-net.net> <20010601140034.C1987@wonderland.linux.it>
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In-Reply-To: <20010601140034.C1987@wonderland.linux.it>; from md@Linux.IT on Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:00:34PM +0200
Delivered-To: 99324@bugs.debian.org

On Fri, Jun 01, 2001 at 02:00:34PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Jun 01, Roland Mas <lolando@debian.org> wrote:
> 
>  >> Most people (with the possible exception of part of the CJK
>  >> community) do not want to use unicode yet, deal with it.
>  >
>  >Excuse me?  "With the possible exception of the CJK community"?  What
>  >about people speaking (and writing/typing) Arabic, Hebrew, Greek,
>  >Russian and whatnot?
> I don't know about Arabic and Hebrew, but russian people don't like
> unicode and do not want to switch from the KOI-8 and KOI-8r encodings.
> 

UNLESS they need to communicate with people from other charset groups
(It directly concerns me - I need(ed) to work with both russian and slovak)


>  >  I