Report forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Klee Dienes and Ian Jackson <dpkg-maint@chiark.greenend.org.uk>:
Bug#31311; Package dpkg.   debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgKlee Dienes and Ian Jackson  Subject: Bug#31311: Comments on Debian packages and installation Reply-To: Adam Di Carlo , 31311@bugs.debian.org Resent-From: Adam Di Carlo Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org Resent-CC: Klee Dienes and Ian Jackson Resent-Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:18:00 GMT Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: iwj@debian.org X-Debian-PR-Message: report 31311 X-Debian-PR-Package: dpkg X-Debian-PR-Keywords: X-Loop: owner@bugs.debian.org Received: via spool by bugs@bugs.debian.org id=B.9150341842615 (code B ref -1); Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:18:00 GMT To: debian-private@lists.debian.org cc: rms@gnu.org, submit@bugs.debian.org References: <199812211400.HAA26752@wijiji.santafe.edu> <19981221083843.D1448@debian.org> <199812230833.BAA15785@wijiji.santafe.edu> <199812240655.XAA29581@wijiji.santafe.edu> <19981224134919.J308@osiris.978.org> <199812261910.OAA07657@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981228124447.G14830@boof.novare.net> <199812301325.IAA11059@psilocin.gnu.org> From: Adam Di Carlo Date: 30 Dec 1998 11:09:11 -0500 In-Reply-To: Richard Stallman's message of "Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:25:06 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 44 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/Emacs 20.3 Package: dpkg Version: 1.4.0.31 Severity: wishlist "Richard" == Richard Stallman writes: > Many different practical reasons "encourage" or pressure people to > use non-free software. Proprietary software developers make great > efforts to create such reasons. [...] > On the 20th anniversary of starting the GNU project, five years from > now, I hope that it won't be necessary for me to launch a new > project to develop a complete *free* operating system. I hope that > GNU/Linux will still be one. But will it be? Only if people stand > firm. Richard, I think that your ultimate point, which is that point of the GPL as I read it, is to encourage free software and the community of sharing. And I think that we have shown that Debian cares a great deal about this issue as well, and has shown dedication in propogating it. However, your issue is with how non-free relationships are presented in dselect. I'm sure you're not against us packaging any non-free packages, as that would mean basically the utter removal of non-free and contrib sections in our distribution, and I haven't seen you ask that. So barring that, I think we can change the dselect interface to accomodate your worry. As you may know, no package in the main Debian distribution may 'depend' or 'recommend' a non-free package. The 'suggests' relationship, which is only intepreted by dselect, needs to have it's GUI mechanics tuned so that relationships with non-free packages are *presented* without actually causing users to worry that they need that package. I think that can be done pretty simply with some verbage in dselect. This message is a bug against dpkg to formulate this verbage and implement it in dselect. I hope IWJ has a chance to consider and implement this; he's always very careful and complete about these things. -- .....Adam Di Carlo....adam@onShore.com.....   Acknowledgement sent to Adam Di Carlo <apharris@burrito.onshore.com>:
New bug report received and forwarded. Copy sent to Klee Dienes and Ian Jackson <dpkg-maint@chiark.greenend.org.uk>.   -t  From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System) To: Adam Di Carlo Subject: Bug#31311: Acknowledgement (Comments on Debian packages and installation) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Debian-PR-Message: ack 31311 Thank you for the problem report you have sent regarding Debian. This is an automatically generated reply, to let you know your message has been received. It is being forwarded to the developers' mailing list for their attention; they will reply in due course. Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s): Klee Dienes and Ian Jackson If you wish to submit further information on your problem, please send it to 31311@bugs.debian.org (and *not* to bugs@bugs.debian.org). Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message, unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system. Ian Jackson (administrator, Debian bugs database)   Received: (at submit) by bugs.debian.org; 30 Dec 1998 16:09:44 +0000 Received: (qmail 2282 invoked from network); 30 Dec 1998 16:09:32 -0000 Received: from astor.interport.net (199.184.165.18) by master.debian.org with SMTP; 30 Dec 1998 16:09:32 -0000 Received: from burrito.fake (mail@usrts3p244.port.net [207.237.106.244]) by astor.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA26093; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:10:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from apharris by burrito.fake with local (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 0zvOBL-0005ep-00; Wed, 30 Dec 1998 11:09:11 -0500 To: debian-private@lists.debian.org cc: rms@gnu.org, submit@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation References: <199812211400.HAA26752@wijiji.santafe.edu> <19981221083843.D1448@debian.org> <199812230833.BAA15785@wijiji.santafe.edu> <199812240655.XAA29581@wijiji.santafe.edu> <19981224134919.J308@osiris.978.org> <199812261910.OAA07657@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981228124447.G14830@boof.novare.net> <199812301325.IAA11059@psilocin.gnu.org> From: Adam Di Carlo Date: 30 Dec 1998 11:09:11 -0500 In-Reply-To: Richard Stallman's message of "Wed, 30 Dec 1998 08:25:06 -0500" Message-ID: Lines: 44 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/Emacs 20.3 Package: dpkg Version: 1.4.0.31 Severity: wishlist "Richard" == Richard Stallman writes: > Many different practical reasons "encourage" or pressure people to > use non-free software. Proprietary software developers make great > efforts to create such reasons. [...] > On the 20th anniversary of starting the GNU project, five years from > now, I hope that it won't be necessary for me to launch a new > project to develop a complete *free* operating system. I hope that > GNU/Linux will still be one. But will it be? Only if people stand > firm. Richard, I think that your ultimate point, which is that point of the GPL as I read it, is to encourage free software and the community of sharing. And I think that we have shown that Debian cares a great deal about this issue as well, and has shown dedication in propogating it. However, your issue is with how non-free relationships are presented in dselect. I'm sure you're not against us packaging any non-free packages, as that would mean basically the utter removal of non-free and contrib sections in our distribution, and I haven't seen you ask that. So barring that, I think we can change the dselect interface to accomodate your worry. As you may know, no package in the main Debian distribution may 'depend' or 'recommend' a non-free package. The 'suggests' relationship, which is only intepreted by dselect, needs to have it's GUI mechanics tuned so that relationships with non-free packages are *presented* without actually causing users to worry that they need that package. I think that can be done pretty simply with some verbage in dselect. This message is a bug against dpkg to formulate this verbage and implement it in dselect. I hope IWJ has a chance to consider and implement this; he's always very careful and complete about these things. -- .....Adam Di Carlo....adam@onShore.com.....   Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Klee Dienes and Ian Jackson <dpkg-maint@chiark.greenend.org.uk>:
Bug#31311; Package dpkg.   debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgKlee Dienes and Ian Jackson  Subject: Bug#31311: [Joseph Carter ] Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Reply-To: Adam Di Carlo , 31311@bugs.debian.org Resent-From: Adam Di Carlo Orignal-Sender: Adam Di Carlo Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org Resent-CC: Klee Dienes and Ian Jackson Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:48:00 GMT Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: iwj@debian.org X-Debian-PR-Message: report 31311 X-Debian-PR-Package: dpkg X-Debian-PR-Keywords: X-Loop: owner@bugs.debian.org Received: via spool by 31311-bugs@bugs.debian.org id=B31311.9151156702818 (code B ref 31311); Thu, 31 Dec 1998 14:48:00 GMT To: 31311@bugs.debian.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Multipart_Thu_Dec_31_09:47:41_1998-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Adam Di Carlo Date: 31 Dec 1998 09:47:41 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 50 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/Emacs 20.3 Sender: Adam Di Carlo --Multipart_Thu_Dec_31_09:47:41_1998-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII --Multipart_Thu_Dec_31_09:47:41_1998-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:55:39 -0800 From: Joseph Carter To: Adam Di Carlo , debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-ID: <19981230135539.C6983@debian.org> References: <199812230833.BAA15785@wijiji.santafe.edu> <199812240655.XAA29581@wijiji.santafe.edu> <19981224134919.J308@osiris.978.org> <199812261910.OAA07657@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981228124447.G14830@boof.novare.net> <199812301325.IAA11059@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 12:16:42PM -0800, Joey Hess wrote: > > As you may know, no package in the main Debian distribution may > > 'depend' or 'recommend' a non-free package. The 'suggests' > > relationship, which is only intepreted by dselect, needs to have it's > > GUI mechanics tuned so that relationships with non-free packages are > > *presented* without actually causing users to worry that they need > > that package. I think that can be done pretty simply with some > > verbage in dselect. > > Everyone (except maybe Joseph Carter) seemed to ignore/not understand my > earlier message about this, so I'll say it again: > > All we need to do is change dselect so if there is a Suggests: that points > to a package that is not in the available file, dselect does not show it to > the user. This will make users who do not have non-free selected at all not > see the suggests, and users who do chose to have non-free selected see them. > > (Do you have a bug number yet for this bug report I can send this message to?) Actually, it'd do to have it say "Ignoring suggestion for " Of course I am certain someone will ask "why did it ignore the suggestion?" and we can either point them at something resembling docs or tell them it's because the package isn't available and it's only suggested anyway so it's not a big deal. Or something like that anyway. -- "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -Douglas Adams --Multipart_Thu_Dec_31_09:47:41_1998-1--   Acknowledgement sent to Adam Di Carlo <adam@onshore.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Klee Dienes and Ian Jackson <dpkg-maint@chiark.greenend.org.uk>.   -t  From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System) To: Adam Di Carlo Subject: Bug#31311: Info received (was [Joseph Carter ] Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 31311 Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding this problem report. It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and to the developers' mailing list to accompany the original report. Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s): Klee Dienes and Ian Jackson If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem, please send it to 31311@bugs.debian.org, as before. Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message, unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system. Ian Jackson (administrator, Debian bugs database)   Received: (at 31311) by bugs.debian.org; 31 Dec 1998 14:47:50 +0000 Received: (qmail 2815 invoked from network); 31 Dec 1998 14:47:50 -0000 Received: from astor.interport.net (199.184.165.18) by master.debian.org with SMTP; 31 Dec 1998 14:47:50 -0000 Received: from burrito.fake (mail@usrts6p68.port.net [207.237.109.68]) by astor.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA02341 for <31311@bugs.debian.org>; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 09:48:54 -0500 (EST) Received: from apharris by burrito.fake with local (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 0zvjO1-0006pS-00; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 09:47:41 -0500 To: 31311@bugs.debian.org Subject: [Joseph Carter ] Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Multipart_Thu_Dec_31_09:47:41_1998-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Adam Di Carlo Date: 31 Dec 1998 09:47:41 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 50 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/Emacs 20.3 Sender: Adam Di Carlo --Multipart_Thu_Dec_31_09:47:41_1998-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII --Multipart_Thu_Dec_31_09:47:41_1998-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:55:39 -0800 From: Joseph Carter To: Adam Di Carlo , debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-ID: <19981230135539.C6983@debian.org> References: <199812230833.BAA15785@wijiji.santafe.edu> <199812240655.XAA29581@wijiji.santafe.edu> <19981224134919.J308@osiris.978.org> <199812261910.OAA07657@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981228124447.G14830@boof.novare.net> <199812301325.IAA11059@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 12:16:42PM -0800, Joey Hess wrote: > > As you may know, no package in the main Debian distribution may > > 'depend' or 'recommend' a non-free package. The 'suggests' > > relationship, which is only intepreted by dselect, needs to have it's > > GUI mechanics tuned so that relationships with non-free packages are > > *presented* without actually causing users to worry that they need > > that package. I think that can be done pretty simply with some > > verbage in dselect. > > Everyone (except maybe Joseph Carter) seemed to ignore/not understand my > earlier message about this, so I'll say it again: > > All we need to do is change dselect so if there is a Suggests: that points > to a package that is not in the available file, dselect does not show it to > the user. This will make users who do not have non-free selected at all not > see the suggests, and users who do chose to have non-free selected see them. > > (Do you have a bug number yet for this bug report I can send this message to?) Actually, it'd do to have it say "Ignoring suggestion for " Of course I am certain someone will ask "why did it ignore the suggestion?" and we can either point them at something resembling docs or tell them it's because the package isn't available and it's only suggested anyway so it's not a big deal. Or something like that anyway. -- "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -Douglas Adams --Multipart_Thu_Dec_31_09:47:41_1998-1--   Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Klee Dienes and Ian Jackson <dpkg-maint@chiark.greenend.org.uk>:
Bug#31311; Package dpkg.   debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgKlee Dienes and Ian Jackson  Subject: Bug#31311: [Various] Comments on Debian packages and installation Reply-To: Adam Di Carlo , 31311@bugs.debian.org Resent-From: Adam Di Carlo Orignal-Sender: Adam Di Carlo Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org Resent-CC: Klee Dienes and Ian Jackson Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:18:01 GMT Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: iwj@debian.org X-Debian-PR-Message: report 31311 X-Debian-PR-Package: dpkg X-Debian-PR-Keywords: X-Loop: owner@bugs.debian.org Received: via spool by 31311-bugs@bugs.debian.org id=B31311.9151166585419 (code B ref 31311); Thu, 31 Dec 1998 15:18:01 GMT To: 31311@bugs.debian.org cc: debian-private@lists.debian.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Multipart_Thu_Dec_31_10:03:47_1998-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Adam Di Carlo Date: 31 Dec 1998 10:03:48 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 426 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/Emacs 20.3 Sender: Adam Di Carlo --Multipart_Thu_Dec_31_10:03:47_1998-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Forwarding discussion of this bug from . I am pretty sure the contributors listed here are ok with forwarding this mail from private to the BTS. If not, so sorry. -- .....Adam Di Carlo....adam@onShore.com..... --Multipart_Thu_Dec_31_10:03:47_1998-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Thu Dec 31 10:02:25 1998 From: Various Subject: Comments on Debian packages and installation Topics: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:16:42 -0800 From: Joey Hess To: Adam Di Carlo Cc: debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-ID: <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> References: <19981221083843.D1448@debian.org> <199812230833.BAA15785@wijiji.santafe.edu> <199812240655.XAA29581@wijiji.santafe.edu> <19981224134919.J308@osiris.978.org> <199812261910.OAA07657@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981228124447.G14830@boof.novare.net> <199812301325.IAA11059@psilocin.gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Adam Di Carlo wrote: > As you may know, no package in the main Debian distribution may > 'depend' or 'recommend' a non-free package. The 'suggests' > relationship, which is only intepreted by dselect, needs to have it's > GUI mechanics tuned so that relationships with non-free packages are > *presented* without actually causing users to worry that they need > that package. I think that can be done pretty simply with some > verbage in dselect. Everyone (except maybe Joseph Carter) seemed to ignore/not understand my earlier message about this, so I'll say it again: All we need to do is change dselect so if there is a Suggests: that points to a package that is not in the available file, dselect does not show it to the user. This will make users who do not have non-free selected at all not see the suggests, and users who do chose to have non-free selected see them. (Do you have a bug number yet for this bug report I can send this message to?) - - see shy jo - - Please respect the privacy of this mailing list. To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-private-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:51:23 -0500 From: Peter S Galbraith To: Joey Hess Cc: debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-Id: <199812302051.PAA30576@mixing.qc.dfo.ca> Joey Hess wrote: > All we need to do is change dselect so if there is a Suggests: that points > to a package that is not in the available file, dselect does not show it to > the user. This will make users who do not have non-free selected at all not > see the suggests, and users who do chose to have non-free selected see them. True enough. But I can already see posts on debian-user saying that we are hiding (non-free) software from users this way. But I'm not sure because I avoid dselect so I'm unfamiliar with how it currently deals with non-available sections. I mainly use the Debian packages web page to shop for software. Personally, I install from CD and therefore don't have non-free available at install time. I would still like a mechanism where I'm told about related non-free stuff so I can decide for myself whether I should go to the trouble of ftp'ing it (whether dselect does this now or not). I agree that the system shouldn't be made to look broken if it isn't from the omission of non-free stuff (unless it is broken). I liked how the Debian Packages web pages indicated suggested non-free packages with a big [non-free] next to them. But that seems to have disappeared (probably a bug). Peter - - Please respect the privacy of this mailing list. To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-private-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:06:36 -0600 From: Jeff Noxon To: Peter S Galbraith Cc: Joey Hess , debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-ID: <19981230150636.A17362@planetfall.com> References: <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> <199812302051.PAA30576@mixing.qc.dfo.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Can't we just have dselect/apt ask the user whether they want to be informed of package relationships with non-free packages? It would be a great time to explain the reasons to use (or not use) non-free software, and it would become a dselect preference setting from that point on. The user would also be informed that selected free packages still work without their non-free extras. A conffile would remember the setting, and dselect would only have to bother the user to answer the question (Do you prefer free speech or free beer?) once. It seems to me that this solution would please most people. Regards, Jeff On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:51:23PM -0500, Peter S Galbraith wrote: > True enough. But I can already see posts on debian-user saying > that we are hiding (non-free) software from users this way. But > I'm not sure because I avoid dselect so I'm unfamiliar with how > it currently deals with non-available sections. I mainly use the > Debian packages web page to shop for software. > > Personally, I install from CD and therefore don't have non-free > available at install time. I would still like a mechanism where > I'm told about related non-free stuff so I can decide for myself > whether I should go to the trouble of ftp'ing it (whether dselect > does this now or not). I agree that the system shouldn't be made > to look broken if it isn't from the omission of non-free stuff > (unless it is broken). > > I liked how the Debian Packages web pages indicated suggested > non-free packages with a big [non-free] next to them. But that > seems to have disappeared (probably a bug). - - Please respect the privacy of this mailing list. To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-private-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:14:39 -0500 From: Ben Collins To: Jeff Noxon Cc: Peter S Galbraith , Joey Hess , debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-ID: <19981230161439.J232@visi.net> References: <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> <199812302051.PAA30576@mixing.qc.dfo.ca> <19981230150636.A17362@planetfall.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:06:36PM -0600, Jeff Noxon wrote: > Can't we just have dselect/apt ask the user whether they want to be > informed of package relationships with non-free packages? Why not take this a step further and allow apt/dselect to filter options out of the standard view. Like don't view extra and optional packages. Don't view non-free, contrib or non-us. Then also filter based on what the packages' dependencies are, ie. don't show me anything that depends or requires a package from non-free. With this in place it would be easier to get dinstall to do what ever you wanted by passing some command line args and opens up the configuration to alot more customization rather than making one change just for this task. - - - ---- -- - -------- --------- ---- ------- ----- - - --- -------- Ben Collins Debian GNU/Linux UnixGroup Admin - Jordan Systems Inc. bcollins@debian.org - ----- -- ----- - - ------- ------- -- The Choice of the GNU Generation - - Please respect the privacy of this mailing list. To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-private-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 19:32:21 -0200 From: Lalo Martins To: debian-private@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-Id: <19981230193221.A709@lalo.dyn.ml.org> References: <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> <199812302051.PAA30576@mixing.qc.dfo.ca> <19981230150636.A17362@planetfall.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Dec 30, Jeff Noxon decided to present us with: > Can't we just have dselect/apt ask the user whether they want to be > informed of package relationships with non-free packages? > > It would be a great time to explain the reasons to use (or not use) > non-free software, and it would become a dselect preference setting > from that point on. The user would also be informed that selected free > packages still work without their non-free extras. A conffile would > remember the setting, and dselect would only have to bother the user to > answer the question (Do you prefer free speech or free beer?) once. Sounds good to me - "seconded" :-) This conffile could also record the fact that I don't want the damn thing to show a help screen before each dependency popup... it's quite annoying after you got to learn the keys. > On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:51:23PM -0500, Peter S Galbraith wrote: > > True enough. But I can already see posts on debian-user saying > > that we are hiding (non-free) software from users this way. But > > I'm not sure because I avoid dselect so I'm unfamiliar with how > > it currently deals with non-available sections. I mainly use the > > Debian packages web page to shop for software. Me too, but I'm quite familiar with dselect also so here it goes. You select, say, gimp. It pops up a dependency screen. In the info pane (below), it says: "gimp suggests gimp-nonfree. gimp-nonfree doesn't seem to be available." I think this is what RMS meant about "appearing to be broken". []s, |alo +---- - - And the sign said the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls and tenement halls and wispered in the sounds of silence http://www.webcom.com/lalo mailto:lalo@webcom.com pgp key in the web page Debian GNU/Linux -- http://www.debian.org - - Please respect the privacy of this mailing list. To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-private-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:40:03 -0600 From: Jeff Noxon To: debian-private@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-ID: <19981230154003.A17619@planetfall.com> References: <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> <199812302051.PAA30576@mixing.qc.dfo.ca> <19981230150636.A17362@planetfall.com> <19981230193221.A709@lalo.dyn.ml.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 07:32:21PM -0200, Lalo Martins wrote: > This conffile could also record the fact that I don't want the > damn thing to show a help screen before each dependency popup... > it's quite annoying after you got to learn the keys. No kidding! Expert mode... Heh, as if any beginning user would believe that dselect had anything _other_ than an expert mode. ;) Regards, Jeff - - Please respect the privacy of this mailing list. To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-private-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:55:39 -0800 From: Joseph Carter To: Adam Di Carlo , debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-ID: <19981230135539.C6983@debian.org> References: <199812230833.BAA15785@wijiji.santafe.edu> <199812240655.XAA29581@wijiji.santafe.edu> <19981224134919.J308@osiris.978.org> <199812261910.OAA07657@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981228124447.G14830@boof.novare.net> <199812301325.IAA11059@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 12:16:42PM -0800, Joey Hess wrote: > > As you may know, no package in the main Debian distribution may > > 'depend' or 'recommend' a non-free package. The 'suggests' > > relationship, which is only intepreted by dselect, needs to have it's > > GUI mechanics tuned so that relationships with non-free packages are > > *presented* without actually causing users to worry that they need > > that package. I think that can be done pretty simply with some > > verbage in dselect. > > Everyone (except maybe Joseph Carter) seemed to ignore/not understand my > earlier message about this, so I'll say it again: > > All we need to do is change dselect so if there is a Suggests: that points > to a package that is not in the available file, dselect does not show it to > the user. This will make users who do not have non-free selected at all not > see the suggests, and users who do chose to have non-free selected see them. > > (Do you have a bug number yet for this bug report I can send this message to?) Actually, it'd do to have it say "Ignoring suggestion for " Of course I am certain someone will ask "why did it ignore the suggestion?" and we can either point them at something resembling docs or tell them it's because the package isn't available and it's only suggested anyway so it's not a big deal. Or something like that anyway. - - "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -Douglas Adams - - Please respect the privacy of this mailing list. To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-private-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 13:01:48 +0100 From: Wichert Akkerman To: debian-private@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-ID: <19981231130148.B372@cs.leidenuniv.nl> References: <199812261909.OAA07654@psilocin.gnu.org> <3685F788.E982E68D@dsp.net> <19981228010242.A934@cs.leidenuniv.nl> <199812291450.JAA10018@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981229160903.K660@ruhr-uni-bochum.de> <87lnjq26sq.fsf@debian.org> <19981230040940.A215@ruhr-uni-bochum.de> <19981230142253.D395@cs.leidenuniv.nl> <19981230121707.A2482@efis.ucr.ac.cr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=BwCQnh7xodEAoBMC; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature" - -BwCQnh7xodEAoBMC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Previously Marcelo E. Magallon wrote: > It requieres a certain version of dpkg to work properly. dpkg has nothing to do with it. It requires a new version of dselect to work properly. Modifying how dselect handles Suggests is still a better choice I think. It also means that an older dselect will still work, it only is slightly more annoying. While we're doing that we could probably also modify dselect so it will do for Recommends what it is doing for Suggests now (ie only show the conflict screen once). Wichert. - -=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D This combination of bytes forms a message written to you by Wichert Akkerma= n. E-Mail: wakkerma@cs.leidenuniv.nl WWW: http://www.wi.leidenuniv.nl/~wichert/ - -BwCQnh7xodEAoBMC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature - ----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia iQB1AwUBNotnrKjZR/ntlUftAQHkJQL/QInkOA4zb/I6yJf0PBh6uGxH1FfVb5f6 UHy+OCjfeL+Jq2VqGd9jqCmYDxKLsDpp142YCdOpOblqkfkIRnY/il4Qjo/kp86K NEmGm2Xqas9Q3lJq20yLZZetQ3cfigDY =0NwP - ----END PGP SIGNATURE----- - -BwCQnh7xodEAoBMC-- - - Please respect the privacy of this mailing list. To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-private-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org ------------------------------ End of forward25960BI5 Digest ***************************** --Multipart_Thu_Dec_31_10:03:47_1998-1--   Acknowledgement sent to Adam Di Carlo <adam@onshore.com>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Klee Dienes and Ian Jackson <dpkg-maint@chiark.greenend.org.uk>.   -t  From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System) To: Adam Di Carlo Subject: Bug#31311: Info received (was [Various] Comments on Debian packages and installation) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 31311 Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding this problem report. It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and to the developers' mailing list to accompany the original report. Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s): Klee Dienes and Ian Jackson If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem, please send it to 31311@bugs.debian.org, as before. Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message, unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system. Ian Jackson (administrator, Debian bugs database)   Received: (at 31311) by bugs.debian.org; 31 Dec 1998 15:04:18 +0000 Received: (qmail 5416 invoked from network); 31 Dec 1998 15:04:18 -0000 Received: from astor.interport.net (199.184.165.18) by master.debian.org with SMTP; 31 Dec 1998 15:04:18 -0000 Received: from burrito.fake (mail@usrts6p68.port.net [207.237.109.68]) by astor.interport.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id KAA05643; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:05:10 -0500 (EST) Received: from apharris by burrito.fake with local (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 0zvjdc-0006qV-00; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:03:48 -0500 To: 31311@bugs.debian.org cc: debian-private@lists.debian.org Subject: [Various] Comments on Debian packages and installation Mime-Version: 1.0 (generated by tm-edit 7.106) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Multipart_Thu_Dec_31_10:03:47_1998-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Adam Di Carlo Date: 31 Dec 1998 10:03:48 -0500 Message-ID: Lines: 426 X-Mailer: Gnus v5.6.45/Emacs 20.3 Sender: Adam Di Carlo --Multipart_Thu_Dec_31_10:03:47_1998-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Forwarding discussion of this bug from . I am pretty sure the contributors listed here are ok with forwarding this mail from private to the BTS. If not, so sorry. -- .....Adam Di Carlo....adam@onShore.com..... --Multipart_Thu_Dec_31_10:03:47_1998-1 Content-Type: message/rfc822 Date: Thu Dec 31 10:02:25 1998 From: Various Subject: Comments on Debian packages and installation Topics: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 12:16:42 -0800 From: Joey Hess To: Adam Di Carlo Cc: debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-ID: <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> References: <19981221083843.D1448@debian.org> <199812230833.BAA15785@wijiji.santafe.edu> <199812240655.XAA29581@wijiji.santafe.edu> <19981224134919.J308@osiris.978.org> <199812261910.OAA07657@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981228124447.G14830@boof.novare.net> <199812301325.IAA11059@psilocin.gnu.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Adam Di Carlo wrote: > As you may know, no package in the main Debian distribution may > 'depend' or 'recommend' a non-free package. The 'suggests' > relationship, which is only intepreted by dselect, needs to have it's > GUI mechanics tuned so that relationships with non-free packages are > *presented* without actually causing users to worry that they need > that package. I think that can be done pretty simply with some > verbage in dselect. Everyone (except maybe Joseph Carter) seemed to ignore/not understand my earlier message about this, so I'll say it again: All we need to do is change dselect so if there is a Suggests: that points to a package that is not in the available file, dselect does not show it to the user. This will make users who do not have non-free selected at all not see the suggests, and users who do chose to have non-free selected see them. (Do you have a bug number yet for this bug report I can send this message to?) - - see shy jo - - Please respect the privacy of this mailing list. To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-private-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:51:23 -0500 From: Peter S Galbraith To: Joey Hess Cc: debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-Id: <199812302051.PAA30576@mixing.qc.dfo.ca> Joey Hess wrote: > All we need to do is change dselect so if there is a Suggests: that points > to a package that is not in the available file, dselect does not show it to > the user. This will make users who do not have non-free selected at all not > see the suggests, and users who do chose to have non-free selected see them. True enough. But I can already see posts on debian-user saying that we are hiding (non-free) software from users this way. But I'm not sure because I avoid dselect so I'm unfamiliar with how it currently deals with non-available sections. I mainly use the Debian packages web page to shop for software. Personally, I install from CD and therefore don't have non-free available at install time. I would still like a mechanism where I'm told about related non-free stuff so I can decide for myself whether I should go to the trouble of ftp'ing it (whether dselect does this now or not). I agree that the system shouldn't be made to look broken if it isn't from the omission of non-free stuff (unless it is broken). I liked how the Debian Packages web pages indicated suggested non-free packages with a big [non-free] next to them. But that seems to have disappeared (probably a bug). Peter - - Please respect the privacy of this mailing list. To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-private-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:06:36 -0600 From: Jeff Noxon To: Peter S Galbraith Cc: Joey Hess , debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-ID: <19981230150636.A17362@planetfall.com> References: <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> <199812302051.PAA30576@mixing.qc.dfo.ca> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Can't we just have dselect/apt ask the user whether they want to be informed of package relationships with non-free packages? It would be a great time to explain the reasons to use (or not use) non-free software, and it would become a dselect preference setting from that point on. The user would also be informed that selected free packages still work without their non-free extras. A conffile would remember the setting, and dselect would only have to bother the user to answer the question (Do you prefer free speech or free beer?) once. It seems to me that this solution would please most people. Regards, Jeff On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:51:23PM -0500, Peter S Galbraith wrote: > True enough. But I can already see posts on debian-user saying > that we are hiding (non-free) software from users this way. But > I'm not sure because I avoid dselect so I'm unfamiliar with how > it currently deals with non-available sections. I mainly use the > Debian packages web page to shop for software. > > Personally, I install from CD and therefore don't have non-free > available at install time. I would still like a mechanism where > I'm told about related non-free stuff so I can decide for myself > whether I should go to the trouble of ftp'ing it (whether dselect > does this now or not). I agree that the system shouldn't be made > to look broken if it isn't from the omission of non-free stuff > (unless it is broken). > > I liked how the Debian Packages web pages indicated suggested > non-free packages with a big [non-free] next to them. But that > seems to have disappeared (probably a bug). - - Please respect the privacy of this mailing list. To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-private-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 16:14:39 -0500 From: Ben Collins To: Jeff Noxon Cc: Peter S Galbraith , Joey Hess , debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-ID: <19981230161439.J232@visi.net> References: <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> <199812302051.PAA30576@mixing.qc.dfo.ca> <19981230150636.A17362@planetfall.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:06:36PM -0600, Jeff Noxon wrote: > Can't we just have dselect/apt ask the user whether they want to be > informed of package relationships with non-free packages? Why not take this a step further and allow apt/dselect to filter options out of the standard view. Like don't view extra and optional packages. Don't view non-free, contrib or non-us. Then also filter based on what the packages' dependencies are, ie. don't show me anything that depends or requires a package from non-free. With this in place it would be easier to get dinstall to do what ever you wanted by passing some command line args and opens up the configuration to alot more customization rather than making one change just for this task. - - - ---- -- - -------- --------- ---- ------- ----- - - --- -------- Ben Collins Debian GNU/Linux UnixGroup Admin - Jordan Systems Inc. bcollins@debian.org - ----- -- ----- - - ------- ------- -- The Choice of the GNU Generation - - Please respect the privacy of this mailing list. To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-private-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 19:32:21 -0200 From: Lalo Martins To: debian-private@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-Id: <19981230193221.A709@lalo.dyn.ml.org> References: <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> <199812302051.PAA30576@mixing.qc.dfo.ca> <19981230150636.A17362@planetfall.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Dec 30, Jeff Noxon decided to present us with: > Can't we just have dselect/apt ask the user whether they want to be > informed of package relationships with non-free packages? > > It would be a great time to explain the reasons to use (or not use) > non-free software, and it would become a dselect preference setting > from that point on. The user would also be informed that selected free > packages still work without their non-free extras. A conffile would > remember the setting, and dselect would only have to bother the user to > answer the question (Do you prefer free speech or free beer?) once. Sounds good to me - "seconded" :-) This conffile could also record the fact that I don't want the damn thing to show a help screen before each dependency popup... it's quite annoying after you got to learn the keys. > On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 03:51:23PM -0500, Peter S Galbraith wrote: > > True enough. But I can already see posts on debian-user saying > > that we are hiding (non-free) software from users this way. But > > I'm not sure because I avoid dselect so I'm unfamiliar with how > > it currently deals with non-available sections. I mainly use the > > Debian packages web page to shop for software. Me too, but I'm quite familiar with dselect also so here it goes. You select, say, gimp. It pops up a dependency screen. In the info pane (below), it says: "gimp suggests gimp-nonfree. gimp-nonfree doesn't seem to be available." I think this is what RMS meant about "appearing to be broken". []s, |alo +---- - - And the sign said the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls and tenement halls and wispered in the sounds of silence http://www.webcom.com/lalo mailto:lalo@webcom.com pgp key in the web page Debian GNU/Linux -- http://www.debian.org - - Please respect the privacy of this mailing list. To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-private-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 15:40:03 -0600 From: Jeff Noxon To: debian-private@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-ID: <19981230154003.A17619@planetfall.com> References: <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> <199812302051.PAA30576@mixing.qc.dfo.ca> <19981230150636.A17362@planetfall.com> <19981230193221.A709@lalo.dyn.ml.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 07:32:21PM -0200, Lalo Martins wrote: > This conffile could also record the fact that I don't want the > damn thing to show a help screen before each dependency popup... > it's quite annoying after you got to learn the keys. No kidding! Expert mode... Heh, as if any beginning user would believe that dselect had anything _other_ than an expert mode. ;) Regards, Jeff - - Please respect the privacy of this mailing list. To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-private-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Dec 1998 13:55:39 -0800 From: Joseph Carter To: Adam Di Carlo , debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-ID: <19981230135539.C6983@debian.org> References: <199812230833.BAA15785@wijiji.santafe.edu> <199812240655.XAA29581@wijiji.santafe.edu> <19981224134919.J308@osiris.978.org> <199812261910.OAA07657@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981228124447.G14830@boof.novare.net> <199812301325.IAA11059@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981230121641.B20356@kitenet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, Dec 30, 1998 at 12:16:42PM -0800, Joey Hess wrote: > > As you may know, no package in the main Debian distribution may > > 'depend' or 'recommend' a non-free package. The 'suggests' > > relationship, which is only intepreted by dselect, needs to have it's > > GUI mechanics tuned so that relationships with non-free packages are > > *presented* without actually causing users to worry that they need > > that package. I think that can be done pretty simply with some > > verbage in dselect. > > Everyone (except maybe Joseph Carter) seemed to ignore/not understand my > earlier message about this, so I'll say it again: > > All we need to do is change dselect so if there is a Suggests: that points > to a package that is not in the available file, dselect does not show it to > the user. This will make users who do not have non-free selected at all not > see the suggests, and users who do chose to have non-free selected see them. > > (Do you have a bug number yet for this bug report I can send this message to?) Actually, it'd do to have it say "Ignoring suggestion for " Of course I am certain someone will ask "why did it ignore the suggestion?" and we can either point them at something resembling docs or tell them it's because the package isn't available and it's only suggested anyway so it's not a big deal. Or something like that anyway. - - "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -Douglas Adams - - Please respect the privacy of this mailing list. To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-private-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 13:01:48 +0100 From: Wichert Akkerman To: debian-private@lists.debian.org Subject: Re: Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-ID: <19981231130148.B372@cs.leidenuniv.nl> References: <199812261909.OAA07654@psilocin.gnu.org> <3685F788.E982E68D@dsp.net> <19981228010242.A934@cs.leidenuniv.nl> <199812291450.JAA10018@psilocin.gnu.org> <19981229160903.K660@ruhr-uni-bochum.de> <87lnjq26sq.fsf@debian.org> <19981230040940.A215@ruhr-uni-bochum.de> <19981230142253.D395@cs.leidenuniv.nl> <19981230121707.A2482@efis.ucr.ac.cr> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary=BwCQnh7xodEAoBMC; micalg=pgp-md5; protocol="application/pgp-signature" - -BwCQnh7xodEAoBMC Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Previously Marcelo E. Magallon wrote: > It requieres a certain version of dpkg to work properly. dpkg has nothing to do with it. It requires a new version of dselect to work properly. Modifying how dselect handles Suggests is still a better choice I think. It also means that an older dselect will still work, it only is slightly more annoying. While we're doing that we could probably also modify dselect so it will do for Recommends what it is doing for Suggests now (ie only show the conflict screen once). Wichert. - -=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D This combination of bytes forms a message written to you by Wichert Akkerma= n. E-Mail: wakkerma@cs.leidenuniv.nl WWW: http://www.wi.leidenuniv.nl/~wichert/ - -BwCQnh7xodEAoBMC Content-Type: application/pgp-signature - ----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.3ia iQB1AwUBNotnrKjZR/ntlUftAQHkJQL/QInkOA4zb/I6yJf0PBh6uGxH1FfVb5f6 UHy+OCjfeL+Jq2VqGd9jqCmYDxKLsDpp142YCdOpOblqkfkIRnY/il4Qjo/kp86K NEmGm2Xqas9Q3lJq20yLZZetQ3cfigDY =0NwP - ----END PGP SIGNATURE----- - -BwCQnh7xodEAoBMC-- - - Please respect the privacy of this mailing list. To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-private-request@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster@lists.debian.org ------------------------------ End of forward25960BI5 Digest ***************************** --Multipart_Thu_Dec_31_10:03:47_1998-1--   Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Klee Dienes and Ian Jackson <dpkg-maint@chiark.greenend.org.uk>:
Bug#31311; Package dpkg.   debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgKlee Dienes and Ian Jackson  Subject: Bug#31311: [Various] Comments on Debian packages and installation Reply-To: Joseph Carter , 31311@bugs.debian.org Resent-From: Joseph Carter Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org Resent-CC: Klee Dienes and Ian Jackson Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:18:02 GMT Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: iwj@debian.org X-Debian-PR-Message: report 31311 X-Debian-PR-Package: dpkg X-Debian-PR-Keywords: X-Loop: owner@bugs.debian.org Received: via spool by 31311-bugs@bugs.debian.org id=B31311.91512797824244 (code B ref 31311); Thu, 31 Dec 1998 18:18:02 GMT Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:12:46 -0800 From: Joseph Carter To: Adam Di Carlo Cc: 31311@bugs.debian.org, debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org Message-ID: <19981231101245.A10026@debian.org> Mail-Followup-To: Adam Di Carlo , 31311@bugs.debian.org, debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Adam Di Carlo on Thu, Dec 31, 1998 at 10:03:48AM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux icarus2 2.1.125 On Thu, Dec 31, 1998 at 10:03:48AM -0500, Adam Di Carlo wrote: > > Forwarding discussion of this bug from . I am pretty > sure the contributors listed here are ok with forwarding this mail > from private to the BTS. If not, so sorry. Working on this for slink as I type. Just built a reference dpkg/dselect and I am about to test these. Once I am certain I have a functional dselect I will begin majing code changes. I have already found the one RMS wants fixed wrt dselect making a missing suggestion seem like a bigger deal than it is. I have already established a strategy for fixing it and I just have to figure out the layout of the structures for proper implementation of the fix. There's a single line that I know what it does but I don't know what it does[1] and I will have to figure that out. Once I determine what the code does and how the structure is laid out, I should have a fix written in 5 minutes. Of course give me an hour to make the fix actually compile and work properly... => The other fix(es) for how Recommends/Suggests will be handled may or may not be so easy. Probably because of what I will have to learn about C++ and the way dselect does things internally to fix the above easy problem, it should not be terribly difficult. I learn fast. What I'm going to do with it if I can is pretty much what rcw and a few others want: Suggests: Works much like it does now. Will NOT install by default however it will bring up the "conflict resolution screen" with the "xxx suggests yyy", the user will have to select it here if they want it. Recommends: Works much like suggests does now. Will default to installing the package but if the user decides not to install it they will no longer be harassed by the program. I am making these changes for slink's dpkg which may or may not be what potato uses, I don't know. It's my recommendation that the first (easier) fix I am working on that just changes the nature of the messages for when a package is not available be included in slink, but that the bigger change be held for potato. Too many packages that currently use suggests would want to use recommends in the future. This also may require a policy change, though those I have heard seem to think the behavior I hope to code for dselect would be more sane than what it does currently. I will not NMU either of these but rather just provide the patches for others to review. -- "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -Douglas Adams   Acknowledgement sent to Joseph Carter <knghtbrd@debian.org>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Klee Dienes and Ian Jackson <dpkg-maint@chiark.greenend.org.uk>.   -t  From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System) To: Joseph Carter Subject: Bug#31311: Info received (was [Various] Comments on Debian packages and installation) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <19981231101245.A10026@debian.org> References: <19981231101245.A10026@debian.org> X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info-maintonly 31311 Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding this problem report. It has been forwarded to the developer(s) and to the developers' mailing list to accompany the original report. Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s): Klee Dienes and Ian Jackson If you wish to continue to submit further information on your problem, please send it to 31311@bugs.debian.org, as before. Please do not reply to the address at the top of this message, unless you wish to report a problem with the bug-tracking system. Ian Jackson (administrator, Debian bugs database)   Received: (at 31311) by bugs.debian.org; 31 Dec 1998 18:12:58 +0000 Received: (qmail 24240 invoked from network); 31 Dec 1998 18:12:57 -0000 Received: from ppp-12.mod.cableone.net (HELO icarus2.soark.net) (mail@24.116.6.12) by master.debian.org with SMTP; 31 Dec 1998 18:12:57 -0000 Received: from knghtbrd by icarus2.soark.net with local (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 0zvmaU-0004Sc-00; Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:12:46 -0800 Date: Thu, 31 Dec 1998 10:12:46 -0800 From: Joseph Carter To: Adam Di Carlo Cc: 31311@bugs.debian.org, debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org Subject: Re: [Various] Comments on Debian packages and installation Message-ID: <19981231101245.A10026@debian.org> Mail-Followup-To: Adam Di Carlo , 31311@bugs.debian.org, debian-private@lists.debian.org, rms@gnu.org References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i In-Reply-To: ; from Adam Di Carlo on Thu, Dec 31, 1998 at 10:03:48AM -0500 X-Operating-System: Linux icarus2 2.1.125 On Thu, Dec 31, 1998 at 10:03:48AM -0500, Adam Di Carlo wrote: > > Forwarding discussion of this bug from . I am pretty > sure the contributors listed here are ok with forwarding this mail > from private to the BTS. If not, so sorry. Working on this for slink as I type. Just built a reference dpkg/dselect and I am about to test these. Once I am certain I have a functional dselect I will begin majing code changes. I have already found the one RMS wants fixed wrt dselect making a missing suggestion seem like a bigger deal than it is. I have already established a strategy for fixing it and I just have to figure out the layout of the structures for proper implementation of the fix. There's a single line that I know what it does but I don't know what it does[1] and I will have to figure that out. Once I determine what the code does and how the structure is laid out, I should have a fix written in 5 minutes. Of course give me an hour to make the fix actually compile and work properly... => The other fix(es) for how Recommends/Suggests will be handled may or may not be so easy. Probably because of what I will have to learn about C++ and the way dselect does things internally to fix the above easy problem, it should not be terribly difficult. I learn fast. What I'm going to do with it if I can is pretty much what rcw and a few others want: Suggests: Works much like it does now. Will NOT install by default however it will bring up the "conflict resolution screen" with the "xxx suggests yyy", the user will have to select it here if they want it. Recommends: Works much like suggests does now. Will default to installing the package but if the user decides not to install it they will no longer be harassed by the program. I am making these changes for slink's dpkg which may or may not be what potato uses, I don't know. It's my recommendation that the first (easier) fix I am working on that just changes the nature of the messages for when a package is not available be included in slink, but that the bigger change be held for potato. Too many packages that currently use suggests would want to use recommends in the future. This also may require a policy change, though those I have heard seem to think the behavior I hope to code for dselect would be more sane than what it does currently. I will not NMU either of these but rather just provide the patches for others to review. -- "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." -Douglas Adams   Changed Bug title. Request was from Josip Rodin <jrodin@public.srce.hr> to control@bugs.debian.org.   Received: (at control) by bugs.debian.org; 6 Feb 2000 22:46:17 +0000 Received: (qmail 18738 invoked from network); 6 Feb 2000 22:46:12 -0000 Received: from jagor.srce.hr (jrodin@161.53.2.130) by master.debian.org with SMTP; 6 Feb 2000 22:46:12 -0000 Received: (from jrodin@localhost) by jagor.srce.hr (8.9.0/8.9.0) id XAA06303 for control@bugs.debian.org; Sun, 6 Feb 2000 23:46:09 +0100 (MET) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 23:46:08 +0100 From: Josip Rodin To: control@bugs.debian.org Subject: a couple of cleanups, please close the fixed ones Message-ID: <20000206234608.A28455@jagor.srce.hr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 0.95i severity 54303 normal close 53526 retitle 31311 dselect should deal differently with non-free packages merge 1037 42061 merge 957 53376 severity 51788 fixed merge 51788 52022 merge 17376 33742 severity 32700 fixed severity 29274 fixed severity 15003 fixed thanks -- enJoy -*/\*- don't even try to pronounce my first name   Bug reassigned from package `dpkg' to `dselect'. Request was from Josip Rodin <joy@gkvk.hr> to control@bugs.debian.org.   Received: (at control) by bugs.debian.org; 1 Jul 2002 14:07:00 +0000 From joy@gkvk.hr Mon Jul 01 09:07:00 2002 Return-path: Received: from cibalia.gkvk.hr [161.53.211.3] by master.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 3.12 1 (Debian)) id 17P1pU-0006u6-00; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 09:07:00 -0500 Received: from joy by cibalia.gkvk.hr with local (Exim 3.35 #1 (Debian)) id 17P1qG-0003jx-00 for ; Mon, 01 Jul 2002 16:07:48 +0200 Date: Mon, 1 Jul 2002 16:07:48 +0200 To: control@bugs.debian.org Subject: the first wave of mass reassigning to dselect Message-ID: <20020701140748.GA12922@cibalia.gkvk.hr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4i From: Josip Rodin Delivered-To: control@bugs.debian.org reassign 2834 dselect retitle 7056 dselect nfs method does no package ordering reassign 7056 dselect retitle 7181 dselect should install packages ordered by priority reassign 7181 dselect reassign 8340 dselect retitle 8848 does not restore old color in xterm reassign 8848 dselect retitle 9085 bottom status lines confusing reassign 9085 dselect reassign 13303 dselect retitle 16020 "Internal error. No arguments given for -e. Press Return." reassign 16020 dselect retitle 16855 e2fsprogsg listed as obsolete, e2fsprogs's Provides/Replaces/Conflicts ineffective reassign 16855 dselect reassign 21134 dselect retitle 21659 dselect doesn't show descriptions for obsolete packages reassign 21659 dselect reassign 21758 dselect close 23322 reopen 23322 Janos Vegh retitle 23322 absolute path not accepted (dpkg-ftp|http?) reassign 23322 dselect retitle 23839 installed packages info set to reassign 23839 dselect retitle 25836 update methods should ask whether you want to merge to the available file reassign 25836 dselect reassign 27284 dselect reassign 27705 dselect retitle 29939 dpkg partially deleted required libraries for pppd and was unable to replace them retitle 30972 RMS dislikes language of the prompt for non-free CDs reassign 30972 dselect reassign 31569 dselect complained that all files had a wrong size retitle 31878 dselect attempts to enforce Suggests: reassign 31878 dselect reassign 32595 dselect reassign 34575 dselect reassign 35654 dselect reassign 37592 dselect reassign 41196 dpkg-multicd retitle 46749 clear SA_INTERRUPT reassign 46749 dselect retitle 55097 dselect with scan is confused if 2 version of same pkg exist reassign 55097 dselect retitle 58107 dselect: can't change mark of an installed package from purge to remove reassign 58107 dselect retitle 75088 dpkg: parse error in file /var/lib/dpkg/status reassign 87434 dselect severity 107449 wishlist tag 107449 wontfix reassign 107586 dselect retitle 115442 The dividing/bottom line doesn't work if dselect runs in xterm reassign 115442 dselect retitle 115445 Dselect cleans up screen incorrectly reassign 115445 dselect retitle 119326 dselect says: 'dselect: failed to getch in main menu: Success' and exits, in screen re-attaching reassign 119326 dselect retitle 120086 there's only only room for 12 characters in the package name on 80x25 severity 120086 minor reassign 120086 dselect retitle 120562 dselect: key bindings have changed but "k" keystrokes screen has not reassign 120562 dselect retitle 121722 Dselect: keys 'o' and 'O' (ordering) don't work in a sub-list page reassign 121722 dselect retitle 130798 dselect loops getting EOF on stdin reassign 130798 dselect severity 130888 minor retitle 87665 dselect has inconsistent background colouring reassign 87665 dselect retitle 106033 dselect: successful search "/" blinks screen, simulates bouncing return key reassign 106033 dselect reassign 108161 dselect reassign 117783 dselect reassign 1555 dselect reassign 4394 dselect reassign 4448 dselect reassign 4989 dselect reassign 6019 dselect retitle 6486 should have a Tk version, mention multiple available versions etc reassign 6486 dselect reassign 6714 dselect reassign 13500 dselect reassign 15531 dselect reassign 16996 dpkg-ftp reassign 25173 dselect reassign 31311 dselect retitle 32489 dselect should pause after remove or config reassign 32489 dselect reassign 32542 dselect reassign 42475 dselect retitle 42962 rsync method would be useful reassign 42962 dselect retitle 46825 dselect unruly with 4000 packages reassign 46825 dselect reassign 53377 dselect retitle 54883 list packages from unstable in a different section reassign 54883 dselect reassign 56924 dselect reassign 78536 dselect retitle 115446 Inconvenient dependency resolution when many packages should be put on hold reassign 115446 dselect severity 122910 minor -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness.   Forcibly Merged 30972 31311 31352 31360. Request was from Bruce Sass <bmsass@shaw.ca> to control@bugs.debian.org.   Received: (at control) by bugs.debian.org; 25 Sep 2006 23:47:36 +0000 From bmsass@shaw.ca Mon Sep 25 16:47:36 2006 Return-path: Received: from shawidc-mo1.cg.shawcable.net ([24.71.223.10] helo=pd3mo2so.prod.shaw.ca) by spohr.debian.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1GS0Ai-0001b2-Od for control@bugs.debian.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 16:47:36 -0700 Received: from pd2mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (pd2mr2so-qfe3.prod.shaw.ca [10.0.141.109]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with SMTP id <0J6600EH3A3CRX10@l-daemon> for control@bugs.debian.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:47:36 -0600 (MDT) Received: from pn2ml8so.prod.shaw.ca ([10.0.121.152]) by pd2mr2so.prod.shaw.ca (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J66009M09IMM860@pd2mr2so.prod.shaw.ca> for control@bugs.debian.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:35:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from bms ([68.151.35.132]) by l-daemon (Sun ONE Messaging Server 6.0 HotFix 1.01 (built Mar 15 2004)) with ESMTP id <0J6600EDK9IM8521@l-daemon> for control@bugs.debian.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:35:10 -0600 (MDT) Received: from onegee ([192.168.0.102]) by bms with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1GRzyg-0004wV-Hm for control@bugs.debian.org; Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:35:10 -0600 Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:35:08 -0600 From: Bruce Sass Subject: reports reflect a single desire To: control@bugs.debian.org Message-id: <200609251735.09435.bmsass@shaw.ca> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline User-Agent: KMail/1.9.4 Delivered-To: control@bugs.debian.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.60-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (1.212-2003-09-23-exp) on spohr.debian.org X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-1.4 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_00,FAKE_HELO_SHAW_CA, RCVD_IN_SORBS autolearn=no version=2.60-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 forcemerge 31311 30972 31352 stop #30972: RMS dislikes language of the prompt for non-free CDs and #31352: dselect shouldn't offer non-free, or something are just specific instances of the more properly placed #31311: dselect should deal differently with non-free packages - Bruce   Information forwarded to debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org, Dpkg Developers <debian-dpkg@lists.debian.org>:
Bug#31311; Package dselect.   debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.orgDpkg Developers  X-Loop: owner@bugs.debian.org Subject: Bug#31311: Heisse Bilder von Julia Reply-To: "Madelon" , 31311@bugs.debian.org Resent-From: "Madelon" Resent-To: debian-bugs-dist@lists.debian.org Resent-CC: Dpkg Developers Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:15:07 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: owner@bugs.debian.org X-Debian-PR-Message: followup 31311 X-Debian-PR-Package: dselect X-Debian-PR-Keywords: X-Debian-PR-Source: dpkg Received: via spool by 31311-submit@bugs.debian.org id=B31311.123064994723575 (code B ref 31311); Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:15:07 +0000 Received: (at 31311) by bugs.debian.org; 30 Dec 2008 15:12:27 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rietz.debian.org X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5988 Tokens: new, 50; hammy, 18; neutral, 76; spammy, 45. spammytokens:1.000-+--HTo:U*31311, 1.000-+--H*Ad:U*31311, 1.000-+--H*r:31311, 1.000-8--H*r:sk:31311@b, 1.000-2--Dich hammytokens:0.001-+--benutzt, 0.005-+--bin, 0.006-+--Browser, 0.016-6--benutze, 0.016-6--da! X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_50,MURPHY_SEX_L1, RDNS_NONE,SPF_FAIL,SPF_HELO_FAIL autolearn=no version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Received: from [190.131.33.132] (helo=ecutel.net) by rietz.debian.org with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1LHgGg-00066l-Ht for 31311@bugs.debian.org; Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:12:27 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:48:02 -0500 From: "Madelon" User-Agent: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Madelon" <31311@bugs.debian.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hallo Maenner! Mein Name ist ANNETTE und ich bin ein echt devotes Luder, dass als reines Lustobjekt benutzt werden will! Ich brauche es hart und verdorben und liebe es wenn Du mich AnaI mit dem Dildo nimmst oder mit meiner P.ussy spielst ganz wie Du es willst! Aber natuerlich muss ich auch hin und wieder bestraft werden und darum habe ich Bondageseile, Klammern, Kerzen, Riemen und Flaschen da! Und wenn Du es willst, dann trinke ich sogar meinen Natursekt fuer Dich. Ich bin da um benutzt zu werden, also sei mein Herr und benutze mich live im Chat! Gib folgende Adresse einfach ohne die Leerzeichen in den Browser ein: www . privateamateure . tv   Acknowledgement sent to "Madelon" <muckenfusssmuckenfussyvha@ecutel.net>:
Extra info received and forwarded to list. Copy sent to Dpkg Developers <debian-dpkg@lists.debian.org>.   -t  Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: MIME-tools 5.420 (Entity 5.420) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 X-Loop: owner@bugs.debian.org From: owner@bugs.debian.org (Debian Bug Tracking System) To: "Madelon" Subject: Bug#31311: Info received (Heisse Bilder von Julia) Message-ID: References: X-Debian-PR-Message: ack-info 31311 X-Debian-PR-Package: dselect X-Debian-PR-Source: dpkg Reply-To: 31311@bugs.debian.org Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:15:08 +0000 Thank you for the additional information you have supplied regarding this Bug report. This is an automatically generated reply to let you know your message has been received. Your message is being forwarded to the package maintainers and other interested parties for their attention; they will reply in due course. Your message has been sent to the package maintainer(s): Dpkg Developers If you wish to submit further information on this problem, please send it to 31311@bugs.debian.org, as before. Please do not send mail to owner@bugs.debian.org unless you wish to report a problem with the Bug-tracking system. --=20 31311: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=3D31311 Debian Bug Tracking System Contact owner@bugs.debian.org with problems   Received: (at 31311) by bugs.debian.org; 30 Dec 2008 15:12:27 +0000 From muckenfusssmuckenfussyvha@ecutel.net Tue Dec 30 15:12:27 2008 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 (2007-08-08) on rietz.debian.org X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5988 Tokens: new, 50; hammy, 18; neutral, 76; spammy, 45. spammytokens:1.000-+--HTo:U*31311, 1.000-+--H*Ad:U*31311, 1.000-+--H*r:31311, 1.000-8--H*r:sk:31311@b, 1.000-2--Dich hammytokens:0.001-+--benutzt, 0.005-+--bin, 0.006-+--Browser, 0.016-6--benutze, 0.016-6--da! X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.9 required=4.0 tests=BAYES_50,MURPHY_SEX_L1, RDNS_NONE,SPF_FAIL,SPF_HELO_FAIL autolearn=no version=3.2.3-bugs.debian.org_2005_01_02 Return-path: Received: from [190.131.33.132] (helo=ecutel.net) by rietz.debian.org with smtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1LHgGg-00066l-Ht for 31311@bugs.debian.org; Tue, 30 Dec 2008 15:12:27 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Tue, 30 Dec 2008 10:48:02 -0500 From: "Madelon" User-Agent: Mozilla 4.78 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en-us MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Madelon" <31311@bugs.debian.org> Subject: Heisse Bilder von Julia Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hallo Maenner! Mein Name ist ANNETTE und ich bin ein echt devotes Luder, dass als reines Lustobjekt benutzt werden will! Ich brauche es hart und verdorben und liebe es wenn Du mich AnaI mit dem Dildo nimmst oder mit meiner P.ussy spielst ganz wie Du es willst! Aber natuerlich muss ich auch hin und wieder bestraft werden und darum habe ich Bondageseile, Klammern, Kerzen, Riemen und Flaschen da! Und wenn Du es willst, dann trinke ich sogar meinen Natursekt fuer Dich. Ich bin da um benutzt zu werden, also sei mein Herr und benutze mich live im Chat! Gib folgende Adresse einfach ohne die Leerzeichen in den Browser ein: www . privateamateure . tv